Alec Baldwin to be arrested with Voluntary Manslaughter charges. What are your thought on this revelation? (655 views, 44 replies)
master
I am satisfied with this occurring. I have no strong feelings regarding this actor but I think it is the right decision to charge him
@dubub right. I always spell incorrectly when making forum posts. I'm not the greatest speller
@💛Yellow_rose1💛 The best information I have heard about this was from an NPR interview with a well-known professional Union Armorer. First off this was a cut-rate production. It was not a Union job. If they keep certain costs down below a certain level they are not required to hire Union employees and they did not. According to the armorer interviewed there has Never been a live round on the set of any movie he has ever been involved with. Not one. If there are no live rounds, no one can get shot. Blanks on a set have been heavily regulated since 1984 when a young actor held a gun loaded with a blank up to his temple and pulled the trigger playing "fake" Russian roulette. Blanks have a good amount of gunpower in them and there is a "wad" usually made of paper on top of the powder. I just read the autopsy report and because it was in contact with his skin, all that energy blew a piece of his skull the size of a quarter into his brain and he died in surgery. ...
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@Wander Yes I am in total agreement with the end of your statement. Good job. It looks like you really did your homework on this subject. Thanks for weighing in
guru
i want to see him do time, whats the liklihood of that? He killed a woman, shes never coming back and he should be sent to prison like any other person would be.
@NOYB Yes I agree with you. I'll be surprised if it goes to court and if it does he will be sent home on an ankle bracelet. Only time will tell. It will be stalled as long as possible I'm sure.
newbie
Someone who handled the gun absolutely should be held accountable. Unless someone here has poured over all of the public information about the case, then I would venture to say that none of us really knows definitively who that is or what those consequences should look like, simply because we don't have all the facts about exactly how it happened. We have several accounts from those who were present DURING the incident in question; and for that reason alone, if they don't offer him an acceptable plea bargain; it will likely go to trial. The fact that the armorer is also being charged, and the AD already plead guilty to negligent use of a deadly weapon are telling for what the New Mexico prosecutors are actually going for here.
Now....as long as we're speculating and opinionating... My guess is one of three things will happen, or a combination of the three, with the end result being the same:
1) Alec will plea out, and the armorer will take the hard fall. Alec gets probation, restitution, a fine, etc. It's gonna be a lot for ol' Alec. Gutierrez-Reed will go down for a few years.
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@Stratomaster like I said If it goes to trial. However A.B does have a big ego and feels he has done nothing wrong. I think where he is going to be hit hardest is if and when a civil trial becomes a reality in the future. I love your opinions and your thoughts on the matter thanks for weighing in
@Stratomaster Respectfully, I will have to disagree. There are a number of legal factors that you do not take into account in your determinations.
First and foremost, at this stage in the legal proceedings, the precise facts of the case as they stand are irrelevant. What is relevant is that there has been a death resulting from negligence. The conditions of the offense of involuntary manslaughter are crystal clear. As per 18 U.S. Code § 1112:
"(a)Manslaughter is the unlawful killing of a human being without malice......
Involuntary—In the commission of an unlawful act not amounting to a felony, or in the commission in an unlawful manner, or without due caution and circumspection, of a lawful act which might produce death.
(b)....Whoever is guilty of involuntary manslaughter, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 8 years, or both."
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@M3g4m1nd If a producer hires an Armorer, because the producer doesn't have knowledge of Firearm procedures, I don't understand how the producer has to share so much of the burden.
I'm guessing, but doesn't the Armorer have to perform under very strict rules & regulations because of his/her responsibility? Do they carry insurance? Are they trained, and have a license? I haven't a clue but one would think so.
This makes me think of Car Insurance where even if you have zero guilt in a collision, you are still penalized just because your car was in that particular place, at that particular time, when someone else decided to be there and ram into you. I may never understand this one.
@StarKissed There are two distinct situations here about the relationship between the two parties. Either they are in a direct employer-employee relationship by virtue of a contract of employment or they are in a position of two independent natural or legal persons connected via a provision of services agreement.
In the first case, because of the direct employment relationship, the employer is deemed as shouldering the responsibility over acts performed in his name. In the second case, when a contractor hires a subcontractor to perform a task on his behalf, he is delegating responsibility for the performance of this task. The legal condition for such delegation of authority is effective supervision over the performance of the task. Hence, if the subcontractor fails in the performance of his tasks, the contractor is deemed to have also failed in his effective supervision over the subcontractor. Because had he supervised the work carried, he would have been able to prevent the failure in the first place.
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@M3g4m1nd Ok, I understand about the insurance, 
Why is it different for a contractor who hires a subcontractor, vs a home owner who hires a contractor? The homeowner can supervise the contractor's work. but he/she wouldn't know if the work was performed right or not having no training, unless it failed. Then the contractor could be sued, but the homeowner wouldn't be held partially responsible for the contractor's mess, right?
Are you saying that a contractor-business owner takes on much more responsibility because he's a business owner?
@StarKissed Exactly that. The service offered and provided is in the name of the business owner and is deemed as performed by the business owner himself.
A business owner offering a service is under an obligation to perform based on the standards of the industry he is competing in. Where an aspect of the service to be performed requires additional expertise which he lacks, he only has two options. Hiring a person with the requisite expertise through an employment contract; or, where the frequency of the required expertise does not justify full time employment, hire a subcontractor on a case to case basis. Each option presents different pros and cons. In the employment contract, you get the services you need much cheaper but you may end up paying more if the frequency of the work does not meet your expectations. In subcontracting, you get a more expensive option but you can play with liability, often limiting liability exclusively to the subcontractor and you can seek restitution for failure to perform.
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@M3g4m1nd How interesting, I didn't know this. Thanks MM for taking your time to explain. It's appreciated. 🌺
@M3g4m1nd See but that's where your "color" of the law is flawed. The law as it pertains to public interest is irrelevant to this case because the incident does not, and (given other instances of this nature) has never posed a threat to the public. Therefore, the weight of public interest holds little to no bearing here at the end of the day. Sure, there may be plenty of grandstanding to the effect of the things you mentioned. Alec Baldwin himself, his production company, and the studio with which he was filming, will all have a team of lawyers who will launder this thing through the courts spreading out all that vicarious liability onto the companies, and there will very likely be a price to pay in both dollars and time, but I don't think it will come down with Alec going to prison. What you're referring to applies civilly, and generally as it pertains to a business, not criminally. They're trying to charge this man with a profoundly life altering crime under the guise of negligence, and for what? Who stands to gain anything by sending Alec Baldwin to prison? Is it going to bring back that woman?
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@Stratomaster Do you mean to say that the prevailing lack of safety standards in an industry that employs 422.4 thousand people, is not a matter of public interest? Respectfully I will disagree again.
I am afraid I do not follow your logic vis a vis civil and criminal proceedings. The law remains the same. It is the type of proceedings that differ, with the differences revolving around how the cases are brought to trial, how they are decided, the burden of proof, the penalty to be imposed and the legal safeguards available. Usually criminal proceedings come first and the civil proceedings follow after the rendering of a criminal judgement. That is a matter of practicality really as the civil proceedings can rely on the criminal ones to save time. Having said that, this is not a requirement and it is not unheard of to have conflicting judgments between the two. But even when this happens, the two decisions remain distinct and do not affect each other's validity.
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@M3g4m1nd Also, by the very definition of involuntary manslaughter, there has to be the commission of an unlawful act. I truly believe they're going to have a very hard time proving that Alec Baldwin was committing and unlawful act that directly led to the incident.
@Stratomaster May I suggest you re-read the definition of involuntary manslaughter? The relevant part in the definition is "without due caution and circumspection, of a lawful act which might produce death."
@M3g4m1nd I should have waited for a lawyer before going so far out on a limb with my plea.
Not guilty as an actor, guilty as a producer???
I didn't know he was also a producer.
A police report quoted statements made by the director. He had confirmed that a new camera crew had to be hired because a previous team had left the production - the 'Los Angeles Times' reported that staff on the set had complained about lack of safety precautions, long hours, long drives and waiting for their paychecks and had allegedly left the production in protest.
Three employees. reportedly said that safety protocols, including weapons inspections, were not strictly followed.
The production company allegedly knows nothing about this. 
What a clusterf**k.
@CitizenD Why would you say that? You didnt make any determination that was erroneous in any way.
I didn't say he wasn't guilty as an actor. I only said that his capacity of a producer enhances his liability ten fold. And that is without taking into account his own negligent manner of handling a firearm that resulted to the involuntary manslaughter charge.
It is certainly a clusterf**k but we have seen much worse than this. In the grand scheme of things, this incident wouldnt even qualify for the top 100 list of clusterf**ks.
@M3g4m1nd I came to the conclusion that he was not guilty - as a legal layman...:
dosmovies.com/forum/thread/Alec-...
When I studied pedagogy, I also took law as a subject - as far as this kind of work is concerned. My brain didn't have any fun with it.
@CitizenD Your conclusion for a non guilty plea is not wrong. The difference is that it concerns only one aspect of the case. I am not familiar with gun regulations or even the law pertaining to them in the US, but if there is a legal provision somewhere that is activated the moment a person holds a gun and prescribes the duty to check the weapon or to hold it in a specific way, then Baldwin is in trouble. Otherwise, it is reasonable to assume that Baldwin had to rely on the expertise of the Armorer and assume the weapon was safe.
Personally I dont see how a duty of care will not be imposed, given the fact there was reasonable foreseeability of harm.
senior guru
I wonder why functional firearms are used on movie sets at all.
If such a weapon is still being used, the armorer on the set should load the gun with disarmed ammo and should not let it out of his sight for a single moment.
A US Occupational Safety and Health Administration has already imposed a fine for lack of safety on the set. The producers of the western must pay the maximum fine allowed of just under US$137,000. The "tragic incident" could have been avoided. Those responsible are accused of "indifference" to the safety of staff.
An actor is not an armorer. Should it then be an actor's job to check the gun and ammunition? I think not. He should be able to use the prop in good faith of its correct condition.
I plead not guilty.
@CitizenD you made some very good points. Ones I had not thought of. He may get out of this after all
@💛Yellow_rose1💛 I found the following on the page of a German television station. But I don't think it will lead to a conviction.
The assistant director, David Halls, had handed actor Alec Baldwin the gun that was to kill Halyna Hutchins shortly afterwards. This is according to investigation reports released by the police in Santa Fe, New Mexico. According to the report, he called out to Baldwin: "Cold Gun". It was supposed to be a gun without ammunition.
Camerawoman Halyna Hutchins was standing behind the camera and director Souza himself was leaning over her shoulder to check the camera angle. Then he heard what sounded like a whip and then a loud crack. Baldwin had pointed the gun directly at the camera - and thus at Hutchins and Souza - during practice. "That's very inappropriate," Steve Wolf, an expert on movie guns, told CNN.
"Even if you tell the actor it's a prop gun, and it's only loaded with shell casings - why point it at someone? That's where one of the most important firearms safety rules was violated completely unnecessarily."
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@CitizenD As a matter of fact I heard A.B. make the same claim about pointing the gun at the camera. The difference was that he said that the director told him to point it at her. It really bothered me as he seemed he was blaming the victim for her own death. I think this was on 60 minutes. One of those shows. The thing that really seems ironic is A.B. was anti gun. He would say that the average American shouldn't own guns. Thanks for your input. I have always found your opinions on different subjects to be interesting
@CitizenD It doesn't make sense that it's some unspoken rule that you don't point the prop guns at the camera...otherwise we wouldn't have every James Bond movie intro ever.
@Stratomaster "..one of the most important firearms safety rules.." So if it doesn't matter for the dramaturgy, you shouldn't point the props at anyone.
Actors should know such elementary rules. In this case, the director is said to have demanded it, when he himself looked through the lens. If you follow that, you should not pull the trigger as well.
@CitizenD I feel the same. I was sure I read years ago that studios had changed over to using replica firearms, specifically due to the number of deaths that had occurred. This never should have occurred.
@StarKissed I also heard that A.B. was cutting the budget and hiring people that were new in the business or had no experience at all. Very clearly a accident waiting to happen. Unfortunately more than just an accident happened 
@💛Yellow_rose1💛 Wow, bad decisions all around, leading to a disaster. A.B. isn't a young kid in the business, he should've known better, but no doubt it happens all the time. I think those decisions will play against him. A.B. hasn't been well liked over his years in the biz; he'll hold a lot of responsibility in this, but I see the possibility of him very easily being set up too. I'm not a fan of this guy, but something isn't quite right. 🤔
@StarKissed yes I agree. I'm sure the truth hasn't been revealed maybe it will in the trial, if there is one that is
senior master
I think from long time ago, even since early 90's or middle of 80's Hollywood , massively buys and uses replicas. We talking about serious work materials - true guns, missing parts that disable them to be able to be used as they made for. An actor participating in action scenes, the better the movie, he may uses non -stop these true guns with disabled features or made with tweaks. Meaning when they hand him a gun to use in the scenes , he won't know if it's real or not, perhaps if he even have shot some rounds before in his life. The responsibility totally not his IMHO, maybe to one or team of other ppl that are responsible in this production. Something fishy in this story, I have a hunch, that if not soon after some years wee may learn something very interesting cause this accident happened. Never studied law but if I was present there, the last person I would focus would not be Mr Baldwin for sure!
senior guru
Thanks for this, because I knew I'd read something about this years ago. Now I know I'm not imaging things. lol Since they started using replica guns all those years ago, it makes me wonder why a real loaded gun got onto the set to begin with, or, why they'd prefer using a real gun vs a replica, if using a replica wasn't a hard, strict rule.
senior master
It seems fairly straightforward to me (as a holder of a firearms license).
Basic training is the person holding the weapon is responsible for its safe use.
It does not matter who told him it was safe (although they are probably guilty of negligence), he is obliged to check it himself when it was handed over, and again if it left his possession and was returned.
@Buttless One test for trainees at the range was to collect their rifles from the armoury where the issuing officer checked each one before handing it over. The sergeant would watch this then all those who had checked their weapon as they received it would have a break while those who forgot did many push-ups. The lesson sticks!
senior guru
During the filming of Hard Kill Bruce Willis misfired a gun at co-star LaLa Kent. It was loaded with blanks and, thankfully, no one was hurt but it shook a lot of people up.
I wonder who would be to blame in that scenario when someone who is quite obviously mentally impaired is on set with guns and/or handed one.
@DemandingFemale good point. There are so many examples of this happening, Bruce Lee, Brandon Lee. When will lessons ever be learned?
senior guru
I have read so much about gun safety today that I now consider myself an armorer (I'm serious, don't laugh!).
I would like to apply for a job. Maybe I can assist on the set of a documentary about Putin???
🎬 "Don, point the gun at Vlad..... aaaaand action."
(These are props - discharged and secured., there is no danger to the rules. )
senior master
I thought that all weapons on the set were assumed to be props, so why would anyone do a firearms safety check on them?
Unless there is something sealed that the police and prosecution doesn't want us to know until the trial, I can't see how this is anything other than miscarriage of justice.
guru
The incident is reminiscent of another on-set tragedy: the accidental shooting of actor Brandon Lee during filming of The Crow nearly three decades earlier.
Lee, who was the son of martial artist Bruce Lee, died after his co-star, actor Michael Massee, fired at him with a prop gun during filming on March 30, 1993, in Wilmington, North Carolina. Although the revolver was loaded with blanks, the gunpowder in the blank cartridge ignited, leading Massee to unknowingly fire a bullet fragment at Lee, who later died in surgery.
@max_black I was thinking about Brandon and Bruce and I mentioned them a few days ago, hence bringing up the subject of, Why has Hollywood and all involved in producing films not learned anything from past "mistakes" as I'm sure all of them are. It's a sad state of affairs. Thanks for bringing Brandon into the subject as it is history that teaches us how to go forward
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master
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