Christianity and definitions as frames if reference (1698 views, 95 replies)
master
The point of an enlightened life is the search for truth ie what is valid? How do I know this is real? And then struggle to ensure that a long held belief has validity. And then what is the meaning of existance? Then how do we treat others ie ethics? Does objective morality exist ie an ultimate framework of good versus evil and right versus wrong.
You can't discuss these very complex questions if you disagree about the meaning of words. That is why a frame of reference is crucial to communication and especially when you don't see the Other's gestures(nonverbal communication) or delivery (were they joking, sarcastic, serious, etc).
Otherwise there is conflict largely through misunderstanding.
top expert
Do not engage, do not engage..
I'll apologize in advance but, I'm at a loss to find a motivation for you to type all this on a movie site. Maybe Facebook would be more suited for you. This isn't your diary. The assumption that everyone here would come at this with a Christian slant is.. frankly, terribly egotistical.
Propaganda is pretty much the worst form of writing outside of Vogon Poetry.
I don't necessarily disagree with anything you've written but, strictly the ulterior motive.
@PsychoDeeDee Too bad. Would you make that post to an atheist?
You are assuming it is propaganda. When in fact it is the belief system of billions across time with the most primary sources of any text. There is no book so documented.
@PsychoDeeDee May I offer a dissenting opinion? I respect your argument and especially the way you have formulated it in a very respectful manner. So please do not take this as criticism of any kind.
The fact of the matter is that I too encouraged the specific thread, as the author and I engaged in a very intelligent and informative debate on religion in relation to society. Problem is that our discussion evolved in a thread that was intended for movies. As such and in order to avoid a ToS violation, the conclusion was reached that an appropriately named thread would not pose a problem.
Now this is a movie site indeed. However the Mods in their vision of the site added a forum function so users can exchange their ideas on any topic they deem fit and relevant. As the forums include specific threads for politics for instance, which I am sure you will agree, bear no relation to the movie industry even in the most liberal of interpretations, by definition, other irrelevant topics to the movies should not be precluded from discussion. Participation to any forum is entirely voluntary and not mandatory if the topic offends any underlying values.
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top expert
I would. You're trying to use circular reasoning to validify bud. Whether one is atheist or catholic, Islamic, Zoroastrian, etc is, irrelevant.
You are promoting one god. That is petty much the essence of propaganda.
And, again, when I question your motivation, instead of just flat out saying it, you want to dance around and, deflect. Typical evangelistic nonsense. Not all is lost, you have accomplished something here.
@PsychoDeeDee Baloney. You are are being disingenuous.
It's hard to take you seriously.
You came out swinging with accusations. Does that work for you? I think it's weak and rude.
Note. The point of the topic is NOT evangelism.
I could care less if you believe or disbelieve. If 4 billion disbelieve in the Trinity, that has no bearing on veracity.
Truth is not based on democracies.
The point is to explain a frame of reference.
master
When a nonbeliever says "saved" it implies that one was able to prevent an outcome that one did not desire. It tends to be immediate but could imply a temporal change that that would alter a life decision that would alter their future choIces.
Examples of nonbelievers' and saved.
I might have been hurt as we were driving down the road and that car swerved, but my boyfriend swerved. Then I was saved.
I was saved from a life of drudgery and boredom because my mentors encouraged me and insisted I go to med school. Now as a physician I heal the sick and feel empowered.
Now how does a Christian use the term saved?
Christians believe in objective morality. There is an ultimate good versus evil; there is an ultimate right versus wrong.
As the Bible is a communication and primer from YHWH, then in it we understand this objective morality. We especially do through the benign altrusitic actions of Yeshua ha Mashiach in Hebrew or Jesus the Christ in Greek.
Jesus says no one person is good. Only YHWH (GOD) is good as YHWH is the source of what is good.
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@AnhedoniaNightmare Either you are a devout follower of the fairy-tale thats been hammered into you since you understood words .
Or your a bizarre troll having a crisis of faith .
Words change meaning throughout the world, NO 2 CITYS use english exactly the same . To use that information as a reasoning for your preaching is no less ludicrous than you bringing it into a 'left wing movie forum post'
Civilizations existed long before the timeline of your favorite work of fiction.
Nevermind the billions of years of geological evidence thats beneath your feet .
The only difference between Christianity and Scientology is time and better writers. And a thousand years of EDITING
@Mark83x Maybe you are a mixed up angry troll who hates Christians.
Maybe you like jelly beans.
Maybe you can stand on your head and sing Calypso songs.
What you wrote is irrelevant. I can do that too. How weird. It's interesting that you think you are a telepath.
What you wrote is illogical. The fact that we are talking is proof. What you wrote would mean no one could communicate. Sorry. What you wrote is fallacious. Language is not that simple.
@AnhedoniaNightmare So civilizations existing long before the timeline in your book are irrelevant to the theology ???????????
Nothing is more relevant .
Where in my observations of your personality have i suggested to know more than the information you have shared across hundreds of comments in a short time frame? Telepath? Really? Am i the one preaching about the supernatural ?
@Mark83x All you do is rant. You never offer anything but observations and they are illogical observations.
Do you have idea of the VOLUMES of logic regarding theology in every philosophy dept in every university?
I think you are funny because you seem innept at debate yet act like you are an expert. You make assertion then expect me to defend them?????? What is that all about????
@AnhedoniaNightmare Theology is not fact.
It is the philosophically oriented discipline of religious speculation (ie, the forming of a theory or conjecture without firm evidence).
Any philosphy or speculation can be used as a point or counterpoint.
It seems this thread is only about agreeing with your theology.
Those who search for the truth cannot only look for support for their supposition. They need to look into counterarguments for balance.
I'm this case, Mark has a valid point which is being disregardaed because it disagrees with yours.
@ No belief is a fact that involves spirituality including ATHEISM.
Debate is not specifically about facts. Facts would fit under "evidence". Logic and ethics ie an appeal to logic and an appeal to ethics are legitimate in debate.
Between atheism and any spirituality whatsoever, it is a stalemate as each is based on faith.
You made an assertion that this topic is about agreeing with my theology.
Prove that assertion with logic, evidence, and ethics. where have I said I am right and you are wrong???
I even stated this is not a topic on evangelism.
@AnhedoniaNightmare Again, what are you on about?
You failed to address your attempts to tie everything to your theology, presenting it as fact, which it is not.
Instead you used verbal gymnastics and side stepping to evade the truth about the thread you started.
@ Prove your assertion that I claimed Christianity or my theology is a FACT.
@AnhedoniaNightmare "In the kingdom of glass everything is transparent, and there is no place to hide a dark heart."
I have no need.
Your motives and beliefs are glass.
@ Quoting poetry is not evidence, logic, or ethics.
What matters in debate is what you can prove.
What you posted is not proof.
You could adopt an ethical framework based on some writer and use that as support.
What you can't do in philosophy is do ad hominem attacks as they are fallacies and do not support assertions whatsoever.
@AnhedoniaNightmare And yet you completely dodged the relevant information for a second time.
Thats not debate. Thats stupidity masked by a misguided education that requires very little effort on my part to point out.
Logic is a word you choose to use?
Logic which is essentially math . With no factual provable information that can be provided by either side to change the equation. Theology is nothing more than different peoples opinions .
Is this more words you will choose to read in a way that helps you avoid what i actually say?? SEEMS VERY FUCKING LIKELY
@Mark83x Logic is not math. That is false. Look it up.
Logic is not a subset of math.
An appeal to logos in philosophy this is EITHER logic or evidence. They are not the same.
The very basis of theology is it is NOT opinion. Have you ever taken a class in philosophy???
Your answer indicate no.
@AnhedoniaNightmare Anything true today may be wrong tomorrow as we learn how to ask better questions .
Philosophy is thinking beyond the facts and concrete data . Into the realm of "what might be" "how i think it is" "my belief is"
Some opinions carry more weight , some stand the test of time .
Mediocre theological mind vs stoner scientist . My OPINION is , this is boring.
@Mark83x I have no evidence that you are a scientist. What do you hope to accomplish by your open hatred of Christianity? Seriously, you do realize your actions are impotent, right?
@Mark83x "The only difference between Christianity and Scientology is time and better writers. And a thousand years of EDITING"
That is an appeal to ridicule which is a fallacy in philosophy.
There is no way to prove that assertion. No debater would ever choose that tactic as a judge would subtract points maybe even decalkre the other side one for such a glaring fallacy.
@AnhedoniaNightmare This is not a judged debate .
This is me indulging my desire to point at a crazy person and laugh very hard because he thinks he is sane
@Mark83x Ah! So you admit that you are trolling! You admit to violating ToS rule #5.
@AnhedoniaNightmare How many of your replys are attempts to get people banned after your 1 day ban ?
Cleary the embodyment of what jeebus would do.
@Mark83x Why do you have to Insult his belief's? Did he insult you? You did not need to add your 1st paragraph. Why did you even come here if your Atheist or don't believe?
You knew the title, you just wanted to belittle the Belief is all!
I don't agree with a couple things he said but I certainly wouldn't bash him for it. I believe in Yeshua(Jesus) myself that's what drew me here otherwise I would have stayed away!
@manditoe The basis of Genesis in the Bible is not just to discuss how nothing existed but YHWH ie I am who I am then created the universe.
Then after YHWH did that, YHWH rested to show that "sabbath time" is essential even to the omnipotent.
Then charged the ha-Adam (Adam the man from the dust/clay) and Haava (Eve the mother of all things) to care for the Earth and creation as stewards.
Therefore each person is supposed to do that as a sacred responsibility. Altruism implies that each person is part of YHWH's creation.
That is why in the Summary of the Law (and this is shocking as a spiritual belief) is loving YHWH with all your heart, mind, and soul is marginally more important than loving your neighbor as yourself.
Jesus in Matthew 25 that if we follow the Summary of the Law and do altruism to others, those folks are the servants (sheep) versus the rebels (goats). Jesus comes right out and says beinga Christian believer authentically means you MUST help the suffering. It's perfect philosophy and perfect ethics.
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@AnhedoniaNightmare You Don't have to convince me for I'm a big believer in learning and studying verse by Verse and chapter BY chapter. I'm in Ezekiel ch 29 right now( The beginning is on the Vehicles the Angels and God travel on. It's also on the end times and the millennium, it's a very good study! If your interested and want to expand your thinking! 
youtu.be/C65PpWPiA-0?list=PLcK3Z...
youtu.be/TnAAYIUWE1s?list=PLcK3Z...
youtu.be/J3oI0DMtHi4?list=PLcK3Z...
@manditoe I could show people who wanted to know...startling things that are in the Hebrew.
You have to really dig to find these out.
Try this. Look up what the seraphim means in the Hebrew. We know that these are "messengers" supernatural beings with six wings who are not human but act in an official capacity to the TRINITY. See Isaiah.
But the Hebrew describes them in shocking ways that I will leave you to discern yourself. These are not the angels that are depicted with fluffy wings and generally European or even Scandanavian whatsoever. They are terrifying and serpent-like and perhaps like dragons from other writings. The Hebrew descibes them as "burning" and since prior there was a mystical vision of a burning coal touched to a mouth, that could be "fire' but also the burning of poison. We just don't know precisely. They also are FAST based on other references to their speed.
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@AnhedoniaNightmare Then the links I gave you (above)should please you! This is the best Teacher I ever had the privileged of finding and I've listened to many! He goes back to the Hebrew and Greek as well.
@manditoe I think you are blessed because of your background, which is up to you to reveal as you could understand the New Testament in ways that I have to struggle to do.
@AnhedoniaNightmare I was blessed the day I found this man to help me to study, understand and that my eyes were opened. He passed in 2014 but most of his teachings are still up.God always uses analogies and symbol's, Yeshua used many Parables and symbols. That's where many take things literally. Like Satan being an ugly horned Beast, He's the most beautiful Angels and God gave him the full package, and he's very good at using scripture with a twist though...lol
@manditoe Helel ben Shahar is the most brilliant lawyer and enemy to the Trinity.
This is why it is foolish to reduce him to a caricature.
His role was the Accuser(Satan) this means his power is to be aware of every sin anyone ever committed and use that against his enemies.
Theologically once you ask the Trinity to forgive your sins (all but one ie the Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit) then you are blameless in that instant. That is why sins are erased and have no power to cause shame and guilt.
If people feel shame and guilt after redemption, that actually is heretical. Jesus (Yeshua) is like trying to annihilate these sins so people are healed from shame and guilt.
Shame and guilt can easily arise from Lucifer. He wants you to feel guilty because then Helel ben Shahar has power ceded to him.
Think about the ramification of not feeling shame and guilt but beeing freed from our past mistakes. It's total liberation. YHWH gives you a "pass".
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@manditoe Much of the Protestant Reformation was opposed to the excess of certain Roman Catholic clergy.
One of these is alleged idolatry due to how masses are celebrated.
The various Orthodox also have these ornate forms of rituals.
Be that as it may, every year on Orthodox Ressurrection Sunday, an annual miracle happens of the Holy Fire at the Tomb of Jesus at the Church of the Holy Sepulchre.in Jerusalem. That is the most holy spot on the Earth.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-lBVLg7...
Now, what does that mean? One could make the case that their calculations are correct and are pleasing to the Trinity.
Look up the videos online.
I am not Orthodox but an evangelical protestant and I am amazed by that happening as possibly evidence of the supernatural. This is not a one time event. It just keeps happening. I have been in Orthodox churches many times.
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@AnhedoniaNightmare Sounds like are belief's might be similar if you learn the proper translation. The Bible(especially ones today) have left and changed words. King James is the most accurate.
@manditoe Look at it this way. Read the KJV Bible as literature and be scholarly and study its Hebrew and Greek meaning.
If you do, the words leap from the page.
Jesus proposed radical ideas like women studying with men to learn. That is in ancient Israel! How long did that take in Western Civilization?
Paul in Galatians 3 states essentially there is no bigotry nor slavery among Christians.
Talk about radical!
When Josef Wilpert explored the Catacomb of Prisca, there are images of a communion feast (Eucharist). But look at the hairstyles and dress. One might say they are mostly women. That would indicate that a female was celebrating communion in ancient Rome.
See the Fractio panis. Historians omit the hairstyles but take a look. An art historian with a specialty in ancient Roman costumes and dress might make inquiries and suggest some rather radical ideas.
A painting is not proof. It can be metaphorical. It can be prescriptive art ie a hoped for reality. It can be descriptive art ie...depicting what historically happened at least once.
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@Mark83x Hatred is illogical. Hate is Lucifer's tool and is destructive. Hate cannot create.
Hate ends up destroying the hater and does nothing to the hated. The ultimate price of hatred is eternal seperation from the Trinity.
top expert
@AnhedoniaNightmare I am not as well spoken (or written) as you. On the topic of definitions and understandings, I think if people tried more to understand each other and pushed less to be understood, there would be a lot more peace in this world. I like your definitions, as I feel you explain really complex theological topics in simple terms that someone such as myself (not raised with faith but found as an adult) could understand.
@1o1o1 You sound like an excellent communicator.
I agree. I understand myself. I feel no need to be understood. I am confident but humble and that is why I spent a lifetime doing altruism instead of gettin' rich.
I am very interested in understanding others. The whole basis of Christianity is to try to repair the relationship of the Trinity to others.
Christianity has nothing to do with condemnation of nonbelievers.
I do not see Jesus being overly critical of sinners/nonbelievers but instead very critical of those who made nonbelievers' lives miserable.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7c-XY69...
The heart of the Law is mercy.
@AnhedoniaNightmare "The heart of the Law is mercy"
That is the most beautiful and insightful description I have heard about the legal system.
Forgive me for not participating in the discussion, but I am afraid I do not entirely understand the topic. As such I would be of no use in a meaningful debate.
@1o1o1 I fully agree with you. He is one of the most intelligent persons I have met in here.
guru
Haddn been around much lately but my, my this thread is a hoot!
Firstly let me espouse a different frame of reference to the idea one must have a religious frame of reference to understand or communicate with folks who hold opposing theological stances. Straight up, that is elitist psychobabble at its finest.
Having spent quite a few years now on this spinning orb, much of that studying the craft of language and its varied nuances, what seems most relevant in this discussion is that anyone can understand anyone if they so choose to do so, no matter what theological position they hold, or choose not to, period. To state an opinion that only a believer of a given faith could ever understand someone who holds a similar view is intellectually disingenious at the very least.
It's equivalent to saying because I know automotive technology quite well, only someone with my own experience level could ever hold a view point with enough validity on the topic for me to be able to converse with. It's irrelevant if the other commenter knows all the vernacular relative to a topic. So long as both parties choose to communicate, one or both of them can use the power of language to instruct if necessary and then communicate.
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@mrkim56 A viepoint with enough validity?
Ha!
What you just did is a fallacy in debate. That is a strawman!
I never said Christians had the "valid" viewpoint!
I never said only people who understand our frames of reference can communicate!
Too funny!
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_ma...
guru
Really? Your opening post in this thread is so filled with circuitous logic and piousness it's absolutely laughable.
Making statements about how your personal viewpoint or Christianitys viewpoint changes the meaning of this or that word or phrase, and then stating the reason believers and non believers can't communicate is because of your versions of super secret Christian only meanings being assigned to those words and phrases.
Then you move on and try to conflate Christianity and philosophy while acting as if that's something a reasonable theologian would truly attempt.
Then you switch hit and head back to your prior tack about how non-believers assign different meaning to things that believers say or do as if that somehow is altruistic.
The reality is that ALL PEOPLE are capable of communication and perfect understanding of what the other party is saying so long as both parties are willing to educate one another on whatever unusual meanings they have chosen to assign the language they're trying to communicate with.
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@mrkim56 No that is false. You made assertions. The burden of proof is on you to PROVE these assertions.
I have no doubt you might. Why not try?
It's peculiar to say "piousness" is some of evidence of an inability to debate. The philosophy books are FILLED with piety, therefore your initial sentences are illogical.
If your point is I am sanctimonious, that would be a fallacy as that is an ad hominem.
What I posed so far is NOT my personal theology but generalized Christian theology one could look up. But that is EXTREMELY complex. Few people do that as it's so rigorous. If you think otherwise, take just one theology course at graduate school. Anyone will the spend hours and hours reading hundreds of paged of philosophical text. That is as hard as going to law school and studying ethics as both are philosophy.
Your paragraph of "The reality is that..." is chiefly my point. ...
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@AnhedoniaNightmare I take issue with your assertion that it can be "perfect".
The whole study of conflict resolution in general and diplomacy in international relations PROVES otherwise.
Communication is never able to be perfect as communication contains nonverbal elements and delivery/intent. This is why there is conflict online.
Take the Japanese language. The negation of an assertion happens at the end of the sentence. Therefore one way their politicians use diplomacy is to measure the nonverbal responses during delivery of their ideas (see if the audience agrees with proposal X)and then can NEGATE the entire sentence!
It is as if saying, I believe in proposal X...not.
English is not like that.
Math can be used as a language which is why scientists proposed that philosophically math might be a way to communicate with extraterrestrial or interdimensional beings.
master
Evangelism in Christianity orginated by The Great Commission as a charge from Jesus and then when all have heard the Gospel, even once in general in a nation, Jesus says in Matthew 24 that "then the end will come".
That is the prophecy. It's a joy for Christians but a terrible tragedy as then the worst war and suffering that has ever been seen will happen and widespread Christian persecution.
Theologically here is one aspect of evangelism.
Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
James 5:20
Each sinner ie one who has a life of errors (has made choices which are contrary to the ethical framework of the Bible) can be saved from eternal death (Hell) and then ALSO covers a multitude of the errors in the evangelist's life.
To be an evangelist is to be a hero and to risk being spit upon and being humble and being a servant to the Triniy. One can only be an evangelist in real life, not online. There is no theological basis, that I can find, for online evangelism. Others feel differently.
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master
I was reading today about why it was so controversial for Jesus to allow female disciples and to be a mentor to women so they could learn from the Torah and the prophets.
Apparently there were at least three peculiar interpretations by those who studied the Torah and Prophets that caused this ire from the scribes, Pharisees, and Saducees.
Now first Jesus was very upset as what had happened was the interpretation was considered superior to YHWH's inspired writings! Wow! What audacity! Jesus condemns this as the interpretation has so deviated from the text as to be like the blind leading the blind.
They had created rules that women could not testify as women were considered liars!
They had created a rule that one could not even allow a woman's hand to touch a guy's hand as she gave him back coins from a business transaction. Just her touch could defile him!
They had created a rule that it was heresy for a rabbi to teach a women anything from the Torah.
Now, knowing this, how does Jesus respond? He allows a woman to wash his feet and she is weeping and washes them with her tears. And in total humility, she dried his feet with her hair. Then annoints him with extremely expensive perfume.
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master
There is a peculiar idea that nonbelievers have about what they think Christians believe about Yahweh (YHWH).
Nonbelievers think that Christians believe GOD causes every action to happen. Well if is so, you can see why he rested on the 7th day!
Therefore if GOD does everything and created everything then they claim God creates excrement, bad poetry, sin, kills people with earthquakes, every car accident is GOD's fault, burnt food on the stove, every child stuck down by cancer is GOD's fault.
Yikes!
That is not what Christians believe. First of all there are 2.2 BILLION Christians so while we have certain aspects in common, a wild rich leftist homosexual Episcopalian is not at all like an impoverished African Christian or is not like an Amish who forgoes certain technology and who is repelled by even a triangle road sign as that is symbolic of the TRINITY who is different than a evangelical Baptist who is different than a Greek Orthodox.
The general belief is Yahweh set the world in motions and the course of stars and created the laws of physics and created the Earth to be a place of growth and peace.
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guru
OMG, I can't believe I just read all of the above made comments...
May Eywa be with you.
@LiliLawless Now the difference between you and me is I fully support your belief system, am sincerely interested in learning about your belief system, and if people mocked your belief system, I would challenge that mockery.
I hope you create a topic so we all can learn what you believe and why.
@AnhedoniaNightmare What I believe is my business.
And I don't feel the need to create a topic about it on a film and tv show website, or any other website for that matter.
Who cares what other people think about something that is important to you and how you live your life.
People believe whatever they want to believe. As long as it doesn't hurt anyone, but most set religions don't even follow that basic rule unfortunately.
master
The only people who make the claim that God kills people with earthquakes are some deists and atheists and antitheists. Other disagree and say what "God"is, that being is just a great creative force that acted as an initiator.
Some atheists insist that as Yahweh is no different that Thor, then Yahweh is not GOD but just a god ie a mythological figure. Thus Yahweh does nothing whatsoever but is just a human affectation.
They even say, quit harrying Christians as if they are just self-deluded fools believing in a god, then why waste time?
It's nonsensical to say since GOD created everything and omnipotent he made that ant cross the road and get smooshed. Splat!
How weird. A GOD who makes you spill your toothpaste into the sink. A GOD who makes your breath stink by multiplying Strep mutans bacteria in billions of humans' mouths so they wake with bad breath. A GOD who on purpose makes you catch every red light when you are late and you fear being fired.
That is childish and inane.
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master
Some don't like it when you point out their posts are illogical nearly 100% of the time.
Aww sad face.
master
It's such a pleasure to ignore trolls. No matter what you say, they oppose it because they feed on conflict. That causes cancer and ulcers. Look it up.
top expert
do not question
simply
take up your sword and join
the crusaders......\
nothing has changed...only the time and date
@crusader When did the crusades end?
1270 AD
The Hebrew idea of studying the Torah and Prophets is to emulate the story of Jacob wresting the Angel.
The rabbis say to "contend" with the Scriptures like Jacob wrestled the Angel.
You do not just accept it. You study it...deeply. You read the Hebrew and Greek. You use a Bible dictionary. You read Bible history. You read about Bible archeology. You use a Bible commentary. You read sermons on passages and then compare that to theology and your own object and subjective beliefs.
You pray about it and try to think the entire day about that passage.
From one African American tradition, they suggest to put yourself in the story in each character's position. Which charachter have you been like over the course of your life? That resonance then of the passage plus your experiences makes it vivid.
One mentor taught me to find humor in the passage. I find many Psalms to be funny moments of weakness and doubt when most of the time, I feel the intimacy of Yahweh. I don't mock their alienation and doubt, but smile how the smallest obstacles make people pout.
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@AnhedoniaNightmare yes sir
IT NEVER ENDED
but when it comes to your town
knocks on your door
do you submit? or fight?
@crusader Can you tell me where the term "sir"comes from?
Given your avatar, I presume you know.
@AnhedoniaNightmare FORGET me im no one...i shouldnt be here nor comment....i was wrong...i apologize....have a nice day sir
master
master
www.zenthinking.net/blog/the-eter...
The idea of the Eternal Now is ancient but compatible across all spirituality because we cannot change the past and the future is always just evading our grasp.
We can only live in this millisecond.
Finding commonality across beliefs is the basis for communcation.
"And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, THAT THERE SHOULD BE TIME NO LONGER: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."
Revelation 10:5-7, KJV
The second that a Christian is "saved" by grace, then though the body will perish, they know they have eternal life. And so, at that moment of accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior, they are eternal beings unlocked from the boundaries of time. That is the first recognition that theyare souls inhabiting a body, not a body that has a soul.
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@AnhedoniaNightmare See what an astrophysicist says.
www.popsci.com/science/article/2...
master
This is all in my opinion just disgraceful. This topic was started because certain people, know their words will get this person or that person to jump. Then everyone can be so much snarkier or more profound than the other. No one will ever agree on this topic, now it has become a who is MORE all knowing and right. No one wrongs anyone by their opinion you can only be wronged by it if you allow it. So what it's different than yours. So is their entire lives. Stop this insane quest for reporting and whining. Seems to me to be a lot of baiting going on to get someone to say something so you can run to a mod. The entire world is not your damned oyster. Rant over. Reply if you like but I will not be coming back to this topic. Feel free to make me the focal point of your hatred.
@fortunate1 What?
Why would I do as you say?
I studied theology and I am just sharing what I learned. How is that a bad thing?
This topic has no right or wrong answers and anyone is free to agree or disagree. Go ahead and do so. I'm happy to learn opposing opinion.
That would be the same if we were discussing biology, chemistry, physics, political theory, ethics, logic, ontology, etc.
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master
Someone made an inquiry/comment and I thought it might be an opportunity to explain about the term...frame of reference in philosophy.
What is the difference between judgement and discernment in Christianity?
In the Bible, there is evidence that YHWH (God) judges people in general, or Yeshua ha Mashiach (Jesus Christ) judges people when they die, and a second judgement at the End of Time.
That is judgement of the soul of a person.
Whereas each person discerns others all the time ie examines the actions of others and the meaning behind actions. Christians discerns whether actions are ethical based on the teachings of the Bible. Most particularly if their own actions are aligned with the Bible. Then discern if what their pastor or those nonclergy in leadership are acting according to Biblical teaching. That is not judgement.
Do you so what you said is quite different that what I said?
NonChristians often say Christians are judging them. According to the Bible, we are not to judge their souls. We can discern whether their actions are in alignment to Biblical principles.
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