Abortion. Should men have equal rights? Do women have a right to kill any man's child? (1844 views, 134 replies)

I always wonder...where is the MAN'S right to a voice in an abortion. The baby is half his... medically. His DNA. It took two to create a baby. A man was involved. Where are HIS rights to a voice before HIS son, or daughter are killed? It doesn't matter who is carrying it. After it's born, they BOTH carry it. This is a question that is going to put an end to abortions. Where are the MEN'S rights? There's only one answser to that. Right now...men don't have a voice...or any rights. But that's not going to last. Men are SICK OF IT! Some intelligent guy with some energy, and love for his children is going to make this an issue. If I were younger I would do it...and it would be an ENORMOUS voting block. Half of the population.

I don't disagree with you Joe about the responsibilities of the male. I would add to the thread that many women who decide to have an abortion are: Teenagers as victims of rape under normal or war environments. Women that have been raped in riots or war invironments, women that have been abandonded by the partners or just live in the streets. Soemtimes both the partners decide the abortion. Sometimes they are women that belong to certain religional minorities that would condemn or kill both the woman and the baby. Not to mention that there are rarely cases of medical reasons that the baby has to be taken off ( i think that was mostly in the past). So in many cases abortion is a right for the woman. Everything I said is from a sogiological point of view. I don't want to touch the theological point of view, meaning if it's a killing of an innocent soul, e.t.c. This is really tough discussion and I don't want to expand my position up to there.

Should men have equal rights? Yes unless the dad raped the mom or if the child was created in incest.
Do women have a right to kill any man's child? Depends.

you've claimed there's no problem with grabbing pu**y,, does that mean you're responsible EVERY time you have sex? Or have you forgotten in the heat of passion, to use protection?
If you want children, find a partner and learn how to be a dedicated husband/father with them and your baby..
If you've ever had sex without the purpose of marriage and children, then you have irresponsibly spilt your seed on dry ground.. (your the one who knows how to research Bible sayings, look up what the Bible says about that, lol)
If you want something you've planted in a woman who doesn't want kids, maybe you should have researched whether she'd be able to tend that garden where you just planted your seed or you're forcing your wishes on someone who probably didn't even know about your warped wishes before sex..
You know that woman who gets pregnant to keep a guy? well you're the guy who gets pregnant to keep the gal..

No one has an absolute right to their own body. It we did, then it wouldn't be illegal for us to do drugs or drive without a seat belt on.

my first child,, I got pregnant on my period while using a rubber... surprise...
No way was I gonna give him up,, and he was the absolute perfect baby,, always happy, always easy to please.. intelligent and loving,, two hours after he was born, he was watching the nurses in the nursery and smiling at them when they played with him...
My second 4 years later, gorgeous and also a really good baby,, but she was attached to me only since she came out with a couple problems,, one being that she cried a lot,, where my son never cared if his diapers were wet or dry and was super patient when hungry.. she would start peeing and stop cuz she hated the feel of wet diapers and start to scream... (no diaper rash or anything wrong physically, she just hated wet diapers), I'd change them, she finish peeing and immediately demand a change again (30 diapers the first day home, I switched to a diaper service cuz I couldn't keep up with washing them myself)..
And then I thought I was pregnant again 9 months after her birth.. my partner decided to start cheating after she was born and he backed totally away from being a dad.. rarely talked to or picked up the kids.. and I think I'm pregnant again.. For the first time in my life, in an instant, I knew what pro-choice meant.. I had been against abortion but in an instant, I understood pro-choice.. there's no way I could have had another baby,, I was barely back to normal after being massively anemic from excessive bleeding after birth.. 3 iron shots and two pounds of liver each week and I'm finally feeling ok again,, he's cheating and I'm alone in a state that purposely treats women needing financial help with disdain and moral religious judgements (we're talking early 70s) because I know my soon to be ex is a student with no job, school scholarships only and I knew he wanted to start selling drugs cuz "those types" of people started coming around and I was starting to feel unsafe.. Limbo is a lousy time to decide what to do and all the more reason why pro-choice is so important.. without that option, I would have been crushed by the weight of everything going on and one more baby wouldn't have the life I was able to give my two I already had and one more would have destroyed the little I did put together for my first two.. We're not talking the utopian world of Bible lovers, we're talking real life situations with real people who have limits..
... and no, not once did I include you and your DNA and sperm, because you weren't there nor part of my family.. If you're afraid of a woman having an abortion, stop having unprotected sex...
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Imho it's basically women's body, so they decide what to do. Just common sense.
If you ban abortion - those crazy women (1%) will start dropping their newborn children from the bridge.

And it's not the best place to discuss this.

I am in favour of the rights of women over their bodies and without their bodies the fetus will not survive. Any decision should be an informed choice for the woman/girl with the help of medical professionals who can guide and advise her to a satisfactory decision.

If the man wants to get involved, and the woman considers him fit material to be the father of the child then there should be no problem. But this is the woman's decision - she chooses the most appropriate father for the child in the event that the pregnancy is not terminated.

Otherwise the man is not part of the decision making process unless the child bearer wishes him to be.



Some years ago now, I read a book called Freakonomics by Steven D. Levitt and Stephen J. Dubner in which their socio-economic research and investigations threw up some startling results.

Their hypothesis suggested that legalized abortion in the 1970s explains a substantial part of the crime decline in the 1990s. I am not saying that this is a justification of anything, only one of the consequences of Roe vs. Wade.
...

1) Five states legalized abortion three years before Roe v. Wade. Crime started falling three years earlier in these states, with property crime (done by younger people) falling before violent crime.

2) After abortion was legalized, the availability of abortions differed dramatically across states. In some states like North Dakota and in parts of the deep South, it was virtually impossible to get an abortion even after Roe v. Wade. If one compares states that had high abortion rates in the mid 1970s to states that had low abortion rates in the mid 1970s, you see the following patterns with crime. For the period from 1973-1988, the two sets of states (high abortion states and low abortion states) have nearly identical crime patterns. Note, that this is a period before the generations exposed to legalized abortion are old enough to do much crime. So this is exactly what the Donohue-Levitt theory predicts. But from the period 1985-1997, when the post Roe cohort is reaching peak crime ages, the high abortion states see a decline in crime of 30% relative to the low abortion states. Our original data ended in 1997. If one updated the study, the results would be similar.)

3) All of the decline in crime from 1985-1997 experienced by high abortion states relative to low abortion states is concentrated among the age groups born after Roe v. Wade. For people born before abortion legalization, there is no difference in the crime patterns for high abortion and low abortion states, just as the Donohue-Levitt theory predicts.

4) When we compare arrest rates of people born in the same state, just before and just after abortion legalization, we once again see the identical pattern of lower arrest rates for those born after legalization than before.

5) The evidence from Canada, Australia, and Romania also support the hypothesis that abortion reduces crime.

6) Studies have shown a reduction in infanticide, teen age drug use, and teen age childbearing consistent with the theory that abortion will reduce other social ills similar to crime.

For more information - Freakonomics: A Rogue Economist Explores the Hidden Side of Everything (P.S.) Paperback – August 25, 2009
by Steven D. Levitt (Author), Stephen J. Dubner (Contributor)
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"I always wonder...where is the MAN'S right to a voice in an abortion. The baby is half his... medically. His DNA. It took two to create a baby. A man was involved. Where are HIS rights to a voice before HIS son, or daughter are killed? It doesn't matter who is carrying it. After it's born, they BOTH carry it."

Interesting choice of words. There is no simple answer though. The role of the male is limited in the initial conception phase and after birth. Hence, we are talking about the universally accepted medical period of the first trimester, during which an abortion could still be performed without any danger for the mother.

Problem is that the father does not hold any paternity rights as there has been no birth yet. Another problem is the use of contraceptive pills that deny the possibility of conception in the first place. One could argue that the use of such medication allows for a choice of conception, a right that is exclusively exercised by the potential mother by the use of such medication. So if a woman is given the right to avoid conception in the first place, she is also automatically given the same right to abortion, bearing in mind that the fetus does not have legal personality in the first trimester.
...
The biggest problem however is the fact that the mother and child share a biological connection to which the father is not a part of. And this is simply the way nature intended it. As such all laws regarding dissolution of marital union, award the baby automatically to the mother, unless grave concerns exist on her fitness for the particular role.

So, to answer your question, there will never be a time where men have equal rights with women in the first trimester of the pregnancy. To do so would imply a manner or direct or indirect control over a woman's body, in essence using a form of coercion to prevent a specific course of action (i.e. Abortion). That would amount to slavery in a sense. And no, the same argument cannot be used in relation to the mother and the fetus, as the fetus does not legally exist as a separate person in the first trimester alone.
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Women don't have the right to kill any child. This is the natural law, and breaking it will lead to further trouble.

well fact is womans body. her choice. as much as that may pain people.

oof, what a sad, sad thread. As usual. Just oofa.
Men will NEVER have control over a woman's body again. EVER. Even if they were lucky & spent an hour or more ( I know most of you are lil minute men) helping to make what's growing inside her. This coming from a guy who lost a child due to an abortion I had no say in whatsoever. I've probably even lost more than one I don't even know about.. You gonna bust one, be prepared for everything that comes with it. PERIOD. That includes ultimately, no say in whether it comes to aborting or not. Granted, allot of couples actually sit down and discuss this thing, but if I was brutally attacked and gangrapped by some f***ers, yeah, why would I want to keep that? The baby would just be a reminder of what I went through. Problem is its men trying to decide what to do with it when they have never gone through any of this sh*t, to begin with. Get raped, be forced to keep it by the rapee and raise it as your own child like you wanted this thing to begin with,.. ... and see if you have the same thoughts about abortion. This crap happens all the time. Sad, sad humans out there, as usual, trying to control what they shouldn't have any say in.
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crutch thats so . so come on.whole can of worms.

And what if the man wants the abortion, but the woman doesn’t?

That happens a lot. In fact, it happened to me. And he is CATHOLIC.

Edit: I am not trying to divert from your question. I’m trying to show you the other side of the same coin, which I think is more prevalent than men not wanting women to have abortions. But it is shameful for mist women to admit this reason for the abortion on a questionnaire because in many cases it makes them look and feel like they are letting the man they love dictate the terms of their relationship. They are doing it to “keep” their man. Or in my case, to keep him from killing me. Yet, ashamed I am anyhow.

Personally, I think the whole idea of abortion should not be governed by politicians. It makes people vote for horrible, evil people who just happen to say they are “pro life” to win over a segment of the voting population. It’s a personal issue that you work through with your doctor...whether it’s a shrink, OB/GYN or GP, and your minister or priest, if you have one. ... It is a spiritual issue, but not a political one. Less government interference in one’s life is usually thought to be a good thing, especially by conservatives. Except on this topic.
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Interestingly, I was researching about the commencement of consciousness in a fetus, which would be the starting point for legal protection, and came across this really interesting and enlightening piece of information:

"A human fetus begins to develop a corpus callosum (inter-hemispheric communication) and the sulci (ridges that are a sign of intelligence) only after week 13 and the myelination and rapid synapse growth happen during week 23 and 28 respectively. So the fetus cannot be called sentient, self aware, conscious being until this point, it is more of a reflexive low level organism until then. Medically an adult with this kind of brain would be considered under the "brain dead - fit for organ donation" category.

After this point, a fetus can survive and grow into a functional human with all brain functions intact - if modern medical facilities and care is provided. So Week 23-30 would be a good beginning for self aware, conscious definition."

So there you have it. ... In the first trimester, a fetus cannot be called a sentient being. After that point in time, its an entirely different ball game.
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Hmmm...

Who doesn't love some Angelina Jolie with a side order or abortion chat? or a bit of Marvel whilst being labeled a murderer?

I'm not sure what was expected when the thread was started. Did you think all the women on the site would rush to be targeted or singled out for their personal opinions and life choices?

The brutal, yet sad, irony is - the same people that seem so willing to sacrifice the mental and physical health of mother and, ultimately, a child, are the same people calling for a shoot to kill policy at boarders, the sinking and drowning of migrants fleeing war-zones, and openly relish and gloat when 'the others' are massacred.

There are millions of orphaned, abandoned, neglected, abused and lonely children in care all over the world. How about putting your time and energy into helping build a better world for them? You know, the ones that were carried full term by parents who claimed to want them.

i feel the same way, don't get pregnant, adopt someone who needs a family or parent.I never had kids,and im glad i did not.I also was careful to not get pregnant;I saw women my age use abortion like birth control, over and over--that is NOT what its for.

Bringing a pregnancy to term is physically more dangerous for the mom than getting an abortion.--All kinds of things can go wrong while pregnant, and birth--& directly after birth can be dangerous for a mom.They no longer let a mother stay ten days in the hospital,some send them home the next day--which is dangerous too-for 10 days after birth,all kinds of emergency problems cab happen to the mother,which is why they used to keep em in hospital about 10 days..You have to make a decision to risk your health by getting pregnant & having a child.

(But I haven't read about people wanting drowning at sea, for migrants--they usually drown way before they reach land,where no one can give aid.(??)And I haven't heard anyone rejoicing when "the others" are massacred.There are very few,limited people like that.--you're taking the few extremists as "the majority" or a large group.that's not true.I also have no proof that "right for lifers" would smile when migrants drown far out to sea.--You cannot say that people fit into "fixed streotypes"so much.I am still liberal in many ways,but I feel conservative over other issues.--so a streotype would not fit me,or others I know. ... You should be more careful of fitting people into very fixed roles,cause they're human beings not robots.)
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suckers

wow,
what a debacle,watching Joe,and other men,trying to assert control over---women--women who don't want "it"and then abort "it"---fetuses--aborted fetuses---"potential children"--losing "potential children"-
----yeah, i guess men are worried there won't be enough starving kids and adults,in the planet,so we should help all the fetuses to come out,become humans,and make MORE KIDS AND ADULTS STARVE TO DEATH.???


FRUIT HERE
is so expensive,i can't buy much.I rarely see STEAK for years--i have to go once a yr, nr Xmas,to a fabulously expensive Butcher's shop,they carve it right in front of you.--its the only place where there's really good meat here,so if i don't go there,the supermarkets no longer have it.Everyone eats such HORRIBLE FOOD HERE,I gained a ton of weight.Pizza is the state bird.As for restaurants,im afraid to go.I have to find one that really has REAL MEAT.
...

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Finally, the meat and potatoes of the debacle; No vagina, no vote.

Between the patronizing lawyers, medical morons and vaginal victimization; it would not surprise me to see some of you ordering take-out as fried flayed fetal flesh ,,on a toasted muffin, and a prick on a stick to go, with an extra large hot bile, hold the vitriol. sick,how life is treated................... ..........

and all the disgusting

Let's make it so as soon as the egg is fertilized, the man has to start paying big $$$$ for child support. Then the question can be asked.

The "any man" part is entirely off putting. What, are we all robotic? Are there no circumstances involved?

And since when do most men of the general population feel a pregnancy? Since when does it encumber on their lives? Since when are their bodies used as housing? Since when do they need bed rest and different nutrition?

MOST IMPORTANTLY show me a majority of men who co-parent with the mothers. Show me men who support their children without thought of the animosity they may or may not have for the mother!

I was raped.

I was impregnated.

I kept my baby.

His biological father evaded all the courts until he was 18. Now they've just let it go.

How's that for justice?

Do you know what it takes to raise a child 100% on your own?

Do you?

Not to mention trying to sort through the 8 hour rape ordeal I went through.... for the rest of my life.

This cavalier attitude stinks.

Full stop.

Strange that the original poster has done a vanishing act... again.

- Posts a thread to provoke polarized responses and cause friction within the community.

- Replies to the first few comments before getting irritated and aggressive after not getting the response he was hoping for.

- Skulks back to the relative safety of the news section for his daily sycophantic pat on the back.

Wash... Rinse... Repeat...

what did i tell you earlier? bondojoe's another one for starting this thread, but if people still want to carry on arguing that's on them. RB is about the only person keeping it real and i sincerely wish she didn't have to be a party to this rabble.

I think it sometimes (actually nearly always) helpes to have a closer look at facts and at the very "subject" of what we are talking about. As i do visualizations every day i want to add some pics of famous photgrapher Lennart Nilssen and some overview of the stages of protection of life. I hope you enjoy. (as always i am not capable of making it short, So i apologize)