Vegans and Omnivores (1627 views, 145 replies)
top expert
I have this Vegan friend that gets on my case every now and then because I eat meat.
one day he's eating a salad in front of me telling me my meat eating is a sin...
I simply replied "what gives you the right to judge me for my choice of eating meat? are you going to force a tiger to eat tofu too?
Here you are eating helpless vegetables and fruits yanked from their homes in the ground they can't defend themselves your a killer to just as bad as me, and you kill unborn plats by eating their seed too so yeah I ate a cow/pig/chicken but you kill far more innocent plants than I kill animals and you have the audacity to preach at me?"
he just sat there shocked at what I said and doesn't bother me as much about the subject
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The secret awaits eyes unclouded by ambition.
Those who are bound by desire see only that which can be held in their hands
@IamBlue Hi ravenbluefeather,
Plants do not have a CNS therefore it is not the same. Although studies have shown biochemical mechanisms such as the release of hormones as stress signals/defense mechanism warning other plants through mycorrhizal mycelium, etc. but to say that plants feel the impact of us eating them is anthropomorphizing the plant. Seeds are meant to be eaten and is one of the dispersal mechanisms plants use to move into new territories. Plants want animals (including humans) to eat their seeds, go to a new location and defecate so their seeds can grow in new places.
@nonamemanon "anthropomorphizing the plant" ... "Plants want animals (including humans) to eat their seeds..."
Plants have a conscious desire for animals to eat their seeds?
@Middleman You are right Middleman. That was dumb of me to write. Talk about anthropomorphizing! Sheesh, I should learn to reread what I write before I post!
Thanks for catching that,
Viz
master
The worst thing is,(since I have been both an omnivore and a "semi-vegetarian")that good, not expensive meat,has really disappeared from America.We were poor most of our family time,as a kid,but I remember pork steaks very good ones,wound up on the table.Now you mention a cheeseburger, as most common.--for meat,and many kids & people think "hamburger"is "real meat."--that is what MEAT IS. sigh.
Vegetarians have to have "essential amino-acids from red meat"and if you eschew All red meat,and are a complete vegan,go to your medical doctor and get these,or get them from somewhere he tells you."Suppliments"that replace the amino acids.We humans need those,only get them from chicken,beef,pork,lamb,(goat)fowl,ect.RE D MEAT.But you can be a safe vegan if you do this; just replace red meat with "supplements"yer doc knows about.--of essential amino acids.
SO,even adults can safely be vegans this way.Not kids or teens!not yet!ADULTS.Don't put yer kid on a vegan diet!He is still growing,and needs enough protein.--Ask a reputable,traditional medical doctor.And he can refer you to a LICENSED DIETITIAN.LICENSED!--not an "alternative one."Its ok to be a vegetarian,eat fish,dairy products,its a type of vegetarian.There are DIIFERENT TYPES.V OK?
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@clarachan1355 Hi clarachan1355, I know people who grew up on vegan diets and they are all healthy adults. One was my roommate, a 6'4 surfer and finished his PhD in neuroscience. It can be viable for children, but parents have to be vigilant and educate themselves on proper intake for the different age groups.
@nonamemanon Ye, i am glad that the kids are all healthy now--they must have been very good at nutrition,and been pretty healthy themselves.They might have gone to doctors,or other sources,and fiddled with amino acids--nutrition is a complex science--I have seen people get very bad malnutrition because they were vegans.so i'm glad to hear some vegans educated themselves on "nutrition needs of kids(age groups)",and could do it sucessfully.we used to see people who just said"ok, no meat,fish,eggs,dairy,i am automatically a vegan!"--and weren't very well informed about it.THAT we saw a lot.your friends sounded a lot smarter,good for them."nueroscience"is still new,isn't it?Nuerology i was told,is a big unknown frontier--very interesting!!
@clarachan1355 Thasnks for your reply, clarachan1355. I am sorry about those you knew who were not as vigilant with the nutritional needs of thier children. Too bad they didn't know my friends parents!
Yes, neuroscience is incredibly fascinating. I am always blown away when I talk to my old roommate and the work he is doing nowadays. Very exciting, very interesting and there seems to be a lot of hope for our future. You are correct in that it is an unknown frontier! Exciting for those getting into that field now as well.
Thanks again for your response,
Viz
member
Ah, the "BUT VEGANS KILL PLANTS!!!" argument. It's rather tired, isn't it?
Truth is, eating meat kills way more plants than veganism. Think about it. Billions of animals are slaughtered to satisfy meat eaters each year. Those animals consume tons of plant matter, seeds, grains, etc during their, albeit short and miserable, lives. They over-graze, pollute, and trample the fertile ground; leading to extermination of species, loss of habitat for wildlife, soil & ground water contaminated by blood, feces, and disease, and destruction of once viable agricultural land.
Eating meat is cruel no matter how you look at it. From insemination to birth to slaughter, these sentient beings are raped, tortured, beaten, their babies stolen from them, and are ultimately crammed into trucks and forced to watch, smell, and hear as their friends and families are murdered.
More and more, it's all for nothing, too, as the conditions in which they've been raised or "processed" is resulting in disease-ridden meat. Meat which sickens humans and pets and is then recalled and destroyed by the tens of thousands of pounds.
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God
First of all, to WHOEVER DOWNVOTED Joe's simple question you are showing how childish you are.
As someone who was Vegan for 40 years (pretty much since I could walk) I have a lot of information and history of vegan-ism and the evolution of the new type of hate it's created from its downward spiral.
I'm not going to write much here, because I've already witnessed the crass way some vegans handle their personal decisions with an iron fist and a dirty mouth when they "perceive" anything they don't like -- and I do mean ANYTHING.
I was reared to believe all life is precious; not just other animals, not just man.
For me, vegans that profess a love for other animals that excludes humans are on the same "side" as those who don't care about other animals or their welfare. Two sides of the same coin. That was NOT the original intent of veganism, nor were these extreme diets or the suggestion that EVERYONE on the planet should be completely meat free.
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@ wow, i didn't know how violent some extreme vegans can get!its just as bad as the meat-eater,who HATES ALL VEGETARIANS--yes,intolerance,hate,and extremism is just all around bad.The COW IS PROTECTED?i can tell you that reason;MONEY.In America,the govt. GOT BILLONS FROM TAX PAYERS,now that those tax payers are OLD,the govt.wants to cut all their benefits--the govt. ALREADY GOT ALL THEIR MONEY!!MONEY and love of it,is a big problem.
guru
Our success as a predator is why we exist . How we were able to colonize the globe . Evolve to a point this conversation is possible.
When you need to supliment your diet with pills. Your doing it wrong!
@Mark83x Are you saying if humans stop killing innocent animals we will cease to exist? Stop being intelligent? Stop progressing? Hmm.. seems to me that sticking by traditions and methods of the past, despite learning how unhealthy and destructive those ways truly are, is what will stop us from evolving.
But, you're right about one thing, if you need to supplement your diet with pills, you are doing it all wrong. People who practice junk food veganism or the opposite, orthorexia, will become deficient or ill. You can't blame veganism for their poor choices.
@Mark83x I believe I answered that when I explained that omnivores are responsible for far greater usage of plants than vegans. (Their dietary preferences also use more energy, more water and create more waste.) Knowing that, it stands to reason that meat production is actually responsible for more pesticide use than veganism.
Why is an intelligent, sensitive, loving creature more important than a plant... are you serious?? I care for amphibians, insects, birds, domestic and wild animals every day. I have done so all my life. Trust me, I can dazzle you with how similar a wasp can be to a cat, but I've never heard of a comparison between any creature and a head of lettuce.
@Mark83x Hahaha. Oh, you couldn't have it more wrong! My animals get only the best. They're spoiled rotten. My dog has eaten a home-cooked diet nearly all of his life. He's turning 19 soon, can run like a maniac, and has all of his teeth, something extremely rare for any dog his age, but especially a smaller breed. My wild animals are free, unless in need of medical care, and have the greatest lives any could ever dream of.
"Failed to give them what their instincts crave" What would that be, exactly? To hunt down a squirrel or something? Nah. They want no part of that. My babies love all animals. Besides, don't you know that stuff is full of toxoplasmosis and parasitic worms? No joke. I rehab, I have photos of it. Btw, did you know one of the longest living dogs ever was a vegan?
@JustaGrl Congratulations you successfully broke the will of a pack animal and made it look to you as its alpha. Every behavior you witness in that animal is something its been forced to learn through positive reinforcing i'm guessing.
This dog ,Have you mutilated it? Removed its ability to have offspring ?
Allowed it the opportunity to fight for its position in a pack?
Allowed it the freedom to do as it f**king free will desires or trained (in your opinion) bad behavior out of it.
@Mark83x I'm not alpha. He has small dog syndrome. He rules. He's fearless and smart and naughty as all get out. The one thing I never wanted was a trained statue of a dog. If you don't let your dog bark or jump or lick faces or climb on furniture or be themselves you shouldn't have one. He's always been encouraged to do what he wants and be himself. He wears no collar, has no fencing, but chooses never to leave my sight. He does so out of love, not obedience.
Allow a dog fight? Who are you, Michael Vick? Do you think anything enjoys that crap? They are happiest when there is no need to fight for territory or resources. When they can live in peace. You obviously lack knowledge and experience when it comes to animals.
@JustaGrl Do i think any animal likes that crap?
Chimpanzees hunt monkeys for the pure thrill of the hunt. Cats kill anything they can get their claws on. Wolves fight among themselves to determine rank within group and LOVE to hunt and as a result they are among the most effective predators on the planet. But yours would rather lick your face , stfu.
Who the f**k is michael vick?
I'm not talking about organized dog fights for some scum bags to get pleasure . I'm talking about fighting to determine rank within its pack. That pack you removed it from , you know when you kidnapped a puppy.
@Mark83x Having had well over 100 wild animals consider me "family", from raccoons and skunks to coyotes and deer, I can tell you that's a bunch of b.s. They don't like fighting. The wild is a tough place. They're born into it, and they do what they need to in order to survive in it, but that doesn't mean they love it.
@JustaGrl Your feeding wild animals . YOUR A FOOD SOURCE . Because of this you endanger EVERY FUCKING WILD CREATURE YOU FEED by reducing their fear of humans.
How is that in the best interest of these animals ?
You could be feeding animals that are genetically weak but assisting them in reproduction by giving them opportunity they wouldn't have had. Therefore negatively impacting generations of a species.
BUT YOUR HEARTS IN THE RIGHT PLACE.
Pity your brain isn't
@Mark83x Pure ignorance! 12 years, generation upon generation of my way, has proven the exact opposite. They avoid all humans except for me. They recognize my dog as safe and run if they hear any other, no matter how far away. They don't need to fight for territory or resources. They stay out of trouble. My animals produce strong, independent babies. They are provided medical care, leading to a reduction in disease and parasites. The runts of the litter often grow to be the largest and strongest... because they actually get the chance to grow. Feeding does not create dependent animals. They know how to find their own food, but they choose to visit me for attention. Animals are so much smarter than someone like you will ever know. It's sad, when people view them as beasts, driven merely by instinct and hormones, or assume they cannot learn without being trained...But you have to justify killing them somehow, right?
@JustaGrl You asked me if i was a person i've never heard of. How is that not a stupid question ?
Many humans enjoy bloodsports , violence , killing . But asking if i think animals enjoy it isnt a stupid question ?
Google it, 'animals who enjoy violence'
Your assumption that i was talking about organized dog fights when refering to allowing your pet wolf an opportunity to fight for its place in a pack , how was that not a stupid question ?
@JustaGrl Which of the many stupid questions are you referring too?
You will need to narrow the field a bit.
Or are you referring to your heavily Anthropomorphized question regarding the comparison between animals and plants.
Again i ignored it due to the way you decided to frame it.
-which is more important animal or plant?
How many answers would you like. Because as that question stands , i could give you thousands .
Which animal? Which plant?
ALL animals vs all plants? Cos that fkn easy . EVERYTHING is dead without photosynthesis .
@Mark83x The original questions I posed, which you failed to answer. The point to all this before you started trolling.
I'm really not interested in your opinions on domestic pets or the effects of human contact on wild animals. Either you have animals, and are therefore a hypocrite, or you have no experience, and are therefore ignorant.
@JustaGrl If we stopped eating mean? no we wouldn't cease to exist (stupid f**king question)
From my observation of you, losing intelligence without eating meat seems very possible . But i dont have an example of your brain as a meat eater so its just a hypothesis .
Would we regress? A question none can answer . Because none can tell the f**king future.
Seriously . Those are what you wanted answered . Wow, just wow.
(i guess the vegan equivalent of a stupid question needs to be written in crayon to achieve that title)
@Mark83x When intelligence fails, start hurling insults! You must feel like a real winner now.
You basically said meat got us to where we are. My question is, knowing the consumption of animal products is no longer essential for our survival, and is actually detrimental to our health, cruelty toward other sentient beings, and threatens the very future of our planet... explain to me why any human, not living in extreme conditions, should continue to eat it? I asked valid questions and your response was to ask me how much insecticide my food choices use (which again is way less than yours!) And you called my question "stupid"??? Geez.....
@JustaGrl I fail to understand your 'meat is detrimental to our health' point,mainly because its fabrication . Anything to excess is detrimental . Show me a study where eating under 300grams of unprocessed meat per day is bad for me(i dont eat beef or lamb,not a fan).
GOODLUCK with that.
Why should we eat meat given we no longer need to????? Meat is essential to the overall food supply . If everyone suddenly felt like you do , the poorest and weakest of the population would starve to death long before enough crops could be grown.
Since you keep throwing in the word sentient . PLANTS ARE SENTIENT . They react to pain, they can smell, they can communicate .
But if you allowed yourself to understand that , what could you eat?
I'm not replying after this. Its so far beyond boring.
@Mark83x So, you're standing up for plants, things which science shows react to stimuli and respond to damage, but cannot prove have brains or experience actual pain. Meanwhile, you defend the slaughter of animals we already KNOW think, feel pain, love, fear, mourn losses and have a desire not just to survive but to live happy lives??? Please, stop comparing the two. They are NOT the same. Trim your lawn and it will grow healthier. Mow over a litter of cottontails and, well, I think you can guess what will happen.
We pay our farmers to grow less. We can produce more plant food per acre than animal. We would use less water and create less waste and pollution. We can store and ship plant based foods more easily than meat or dairy. Not to mention plenty of our produce is already grown in the poorest parts of the world. No one would starve and it would never happen overnight anyway.
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@Mark83x The "new" member we are chatting to (Justagirl), is quite clearly an old member with yet another multi account.
The sheer amount of venom, bias and hatred is exactly what I was alluding to in my first reply to Joe.
We'll done staying with it to show the dross that's hidden beneath the thin veneer of sardonically applied "good intentions". :)
@JustaGrl Not necessarily. Do you know how the human body synthesizes B12? It doesn't. Humans obtain B12 from food or supplements. Modern growing practices are nearly devoid in providing adequate B12, which is absolutely necessary for a healthy nervous system. Then there are those (like myself) who don't store B12 properly. I eat a terrific diet rich in raw, dark leafy greens, but after 20 years, my body stopped allowing me to menstruate. My eyesight was failing and my body tingled all the time. Roughly 2 percent of the world has pernicious anemia which cannot be supplemented and only injections will rectify. The Human body does not make or synthesize many essential vitamins and our produce is deficient, even the organic type.
I mean you no disrespect, but I was a strict vegan, and I nearly died. You would never have known to look at me.
Veganism does NOT work for everyone across the planet, because our bodies genetically are vastly different due to evolution.
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@ First off, I'm sorry you fell ill. I don't know you though, so I can't say where your diet plan went awry.
Super healthy eating doesn't mean it can't become off balance, after all. The average human liver can store enough B12 to last for several years. Prolonged deficient eating or other health risks can lead to anemia, even in omnivores.
Greens aren't a source of B12, even if you're a cow, but so many other things are. Things most people would never suspect. For example, plant milks, cereals, yeast flakes and spreads, some vegan mayo, some boxed vegan mac & cheese, some juices, flavored waters, protein bars and even chewing gum! As veganism gains momentum, companies are adding it to more and more products.
Is it a sign of the unhealthiness of vegan food? No. Household staples like dairy products and white bread have been fortified with vitamins and minerals for decades. No one seems to think much about that.
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@JustaGrl My diet fell awry?
No.
Pernicious anemia.
That is not a bad diet. It is a phisiological and organic condition.
You need some education.
Which do you hate:
Nectar eating birds
Seed eating bords
Insect eating borss
Bird eating birds?
They are all evolutionary types and they cannot swap diets or they die.
It's the same with homo-sapiens.
@JustaGrl You should really re-read what I wrote.
THAT was MY point.
Saying the world should all go vegan IS saying the whole world should eat one way and physiologically speaking, that is unhealthy.
I can and do eat a primarily vegan diet still.
@ You said humans were like birds, that they cannot change diets or they die.
A robin or dove has little wiggle room within their diet (I know, I've raised both); a vegan human has endless possibilities. It's hardly the same thing.
There are all types of vegans, eating all different ways around the world. No one way works for everyone and no one's asking that we eat one way.
If you are a vegan with a medical condition requiring supplements, how is that any different from an omnivore requiring supplements?
If the animals themselves are being given B12 pills, then the omnivore is taking supplements, whether they're aware or not.
I don't recall saying everyone should go 100% vegan. I do recall saying above that "veganism isn't about perfection" and that "all we ask is that people acknowledge the truth and try to do better".
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@ If it's not from insufficient diet, then veganism is not to blame. If PA is autoimmune or hereditary in nature, and lack of IF prevents you from absorbing B12 from food sources, then how can you absorb it from pills and why is one of the suggested treatments to eat more fortified vegan foods? Why do so few people have it, when many are vegetarians or vegans and not all popping pills? Are they just getting enough from plant milks and cereals and such? Do some have the ability to store more than others? I've read nothing saying lack of IF is caused by the vegan diet itself, but lack of B12 can be if not including certain foods. The information about PA is very contradictory. I have questions is all. Not trying to offend you.
@JustaGrl I NEVER, EVER blamed the vegan diet.
Honestly, you and whoever is upvoting your comments is NOT reading what I wrote accurately.
It is NOT an autoimmune disease, first off.
The problem for me became that I could not get adequate amounts of b12 no matter what I ate.
I am not someone who is against veganism.
I am against the hate.
It doesn't work and people are different in many ways (I mentioned my Pernicious Anemia as an EXAMPLE of genetics, and it is ONLY one, there are many).
More than likely, I have many, many years more experience and more training than you do.
If you wanted to support veganism as an alternative, it would be 100% warranted, but telling me the facts around PA is counter productive to any conversation with me.
You clearly didn't read what I wrote.
AGAIN, I NEVER blamed the vegan diet.
Please read answers and look for education when someone presents circumstances you are not largely familiar with.
@ You stated veganism doesn't work for everyone and that you were a strict vegan who nearly died... that wording implied that the diet had something to do with your illness. Then you said you could not absorb B12, no matter what you ate. That you must have injections. That part did absolve veganism from blame.
Again, I'm sorry you have this condition, but the info surrounding it isn't very clear. Seems the cause and treatment varies from person to person. One thing says eating insufficient B12 causes it, another says it prevents people from absorbing it anyway, one says it's genetic, another says autoimmune disease attacks the body's ability to create IF, another says fortified foods could prevent it or treat it, another says it can't be prevented and injections are needed.
Forgive me, but I did my research and I said I still had questions. No need to jump on people who are taking the time to learn about your condition and how it relates to the topic at hand.
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@JustaGrl To clarify, did not nearly die. I didn't say that I did. Any reference to "I don't want anyone to die" was a reference to eating animal flesh.
Pernicious anemia is thought to be influenced by 3 factors:
1. Genes. Family members generally have it and pass it on.
2. Ethnic groups. In this case Scandinavians are the primary group.
3. The pre-existing condition of a family history of autoimmune endocrine disorders.
Pernicious anemia is not an auto immune disease, but is found more in those who already have an autoimmune endocrine disorder.
My point was that it is genetics, and genetics are primarily what determines what is best for each of us to eat as individuals.
I am not jumping on anyone, but you have misunderstood that there is a huge difference between anemia and pernicious anemia, and pernicious anemia is not an AI disease. being direct and to the point about clarifying that is warranted and I am sorry if it was perceived differently.
@ Yes, you did say those exact words. Maybe it's not what you meant, and that happens, especially when thoughts turn into text. In any case, I understand what you were trying to do. Something happened to you and you wanted to warn others about it. It's good. I did inspire me to learn more about your condition. I actually found something, which maybe you already know about or have decided against, for one reason or another, but it seems Eligen B12 is an oral treatment that can eliminate the need for weekly injections in those without IF.
@JustaGrl Not for Pernicious anemia. It is resistant to oral treatments. Like I stated PA and anemia are chalk and cheese.
I've managed mine initially with injections as my B12 serum was non existent by the time I understood what was going on.
Now I am symptom free with diet.
This is why I advocate eating what "feels good and healthy" for your body, not a one die fits all diet.
@JustaGrl Your reply is a perfect example of something that has razorblades of hate concealed within "I'm just being helpful".
I don't appreciate the suggestion from someone who's G00gling for information on a subject they know nearly nothing about and then being flippantly dismissive when they know nothing about the subject they are "advising".
Thank you for showing by example how the new vegans cannot conceal their hatred and knowitallism for long.
Please refrain from G00gling Wiki articles and sharing like an medical expert and then making passive aggressive statements when those suggestions are not applicable.
You have mis read, mis understood, and mis diagnosed.
I don't have any time for your condescension and cavalier attitude.
You have only been registered on the site for 3 days and yet you're all over a thread, which is really strange.
@ Who's a "new" vegan? By all means, prove me wrong if you have evidence to do so. If you'd said "That wouldn't have worked for my case." I could respect it, but to say it flat out doesn't work for PA when it is in fact working for others who have it is a blatant lie. I didn't get my info off wiki either. It was info from the doctors and patients currently using it, as well as studies and clinical trials, but I guess you know more than all them, too! I'm not making this sh*t up, you did say you were a strict vegan who nearly died. Go back and look. Another lie. But I'm hateful and a know-it-all for calling you out on it. Okayyy then...
@JustaGrl Yep, you are.
You know nothing about me, and you've deemed yourself the expert.
Bahahahahahaha.
@ Again with the accusations and assumptions. Add that to the sweeping generalizations and lies you've posted. The topic I responded to was vegans needing pills, you proceeded to interject with a story about your medical condition, which you admit has nothing to do with veganism or vegans having to take pills. I made every attempt to understand what you were trying to say (which read all over the place), to ask questions, to research, and to present facts. You keep hinting you're older or have more experience. Like you think you're superior. We're the same age for Pete's sake. Both non-meat eating, animal advocates from young children. I don't feel hatred toward you. Why the heck would I? That doesn't even make any sense. I'm done. Your responses have become juvenile and a ridiculous waste of my time.
@JustaGrl Your IF reference show you are quoting an article you do not understand by G00gling for information.
IF has zero to do with my particular case.
@ Oh, and which "article" is that?
The glaring inconsistencies in your comments is beginning to make me question whether you even have this condition. I heard about that tablet on a board for another condition; one which I have. Some people there also have PA. I'll be sure to go back and tell them that you said their doctor recommended treatment cannot work though.
@JustaGrl We only mostly saw very ill vegans--I'm glad there were plenty intelligent ones.
senior master
Live your life the way you want to. Let us judge less and not push our ways or beliefs onto others or put down others for their choices. Plenty of hypocrisy here and labeling of others ... the usual.
Happy NEW YEAR!!
expert
Yes, bondojoe, industrial agriculture is a crock of sh*t, the land surrounding those plants are basically wastelands and the cruelty is beyond comprehension. It was meant as a way to increase production, but that epically failed from the start even though governments continue to support it.
Idk why people attack others for what they eat. I am a vegan and a scientist having read many studies on the subject and my best friend is finishing up her PhD in nutrition so I can understand how the body processes nutrients and when I do not understand something I ask my bff or other scientists I know, specifically my nutritionist, biochemist and food scientist friends. Plus the only people I attack are my parents because I care about them and want them around for as long as possible, but I am not concerned with what everyone else eats. If people want to eat meat and sugar and all that then why should it be my business?
Other than from the environmental perspective would it concern me, but one person choosing to eat meat is not going to make a difference. The environmental impact is one reason to consider vegetarian/veganism, but seriously that would mean a f**kload of people changing their nutritional intake and I highly doubt that many people are going to change. In reality the planet is way beyond repair and it would take a highly improbable amount of change to really make a significant difference. As an atheist I don't believe in miracles but we need a f**king miracle for our environmental health. If you want to learn more about it, just read scientific articles on the subject. Beware though that learning about the environment can make one jaded or you can simply ignore it and live blissfully unaware until you encounter the effects of environmental degradation. Regardless, the planet will continue whether we are on it or not, that is until it is eaten by our star.
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@nonamemanon We vote with our wallets, and now with social media influence, as well. Companies that wish to remain in business had better listen up. A brief walk into any grocery store 30, 20, or even 10 years ago versus today reflects that. Long ago, when I was a vegetarian child, much to my parents confusion, there were very few options available. Now even well-known, non-vegan companies are rushing to get in on the vegan food boom. If our impact was so slight, Unilever would not have sued Hampton Creek. If our voices were so faint, they would not have backed off and introduced their own vegan spread. Everything takes time, but that doesn't mean we should give up.
I applaud you for choosing local over factory farmed. I agree that obligate carnivores should not be fed a vegan diet, as we are not to the point of being able to fully replicate their nutritional needs with such foods. ...
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@JustaGrl Hi JustaGrl,
You are right, everything does take time. You are also right that there is greater awareness nowadays compared to 20, 30, 40 years ago. Social media is a great influence as I have written papers about that as well, well that was one small part of the overall subject.
I also agree that there are more options now, but the cynic in me gets upset because I liked it when small companies focused on quality organic products, but just as you wrote, larger companies became interested in the profit garnered from the then niche market. This interest saw the reduction in quality of organic especially when the U.S. adopted the two/three year rule for organics. That was one of the worst things as I had lived in an area where the minimum was five/seven years for no agrochemical use to be considered organic. On the other hand, my bff, the nutritionist and my husband have both pointed out that at least these generic companies are having a greater impact and products are widely available compared to before. I am grateful that they pointed out that perspective, but I am also angry that we have conceded to lesser quality here in the States.
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@nonamemanon As Middleman posted up above reminding me to reread my posts, I reread this one and should have written on the last paragraph that "As far as a vegan diet goes for my canine companion..."
I hope I have a good grasp on my own personal vegan consumption as I have been vegan for quite a while, well off and on vegan/vegetarian since I was 18. Mostly vegan and on the off occassion, vegetarian.
Apologies to everyone who read this for the lack of consistency,
Viz
@nonamemanon But you don't mind killing the grass fed beef,rabbit,or bison, do you?as long as your dog needs it.A lot of people don't eat as well as your dog.If you do attack your parents on the subject,I can tell you,they do see it as "an attack,and not helpful."--your parents don't want to be lectured to.
What has happened,is people eat cheaper,badly-made,crappy meat now.--Very few can afford decent meat."Fast-food"places can poison you a lot--I know one woman.eats out much,she gets food poisoning a lot.--even everyone at the meal,got poisoned.FAST FOOD places do a lot of food poisoning.Years ago,restaurants weren't as bad,--now they are.--cause of all the BAD MEAT.-BAD FOOD.PIZZA for miles!!No meat eater enjoys food any more unless he's rich.--Which is one reason I don't eat out too much,in Eugene Oregon--PIZZA,PIZZA,bad fast food.Yes,less cheese is a good idea.The French only survive their rich diet,because the wine & alcohol saves them--it protects them(yes,very weird.)Food and meat,has largely gotten very bad--I won't repeat what PIG RAISING IS LIKE.--my job did put me off meat a lot--I knew how it was raised,fed,ect,ect.,I hate chicken--and since its cheap,everyone eats it.--but i feel badly for the chickens,we had them for PETS AS KIDS.
@clarachan1355 Hi clarachan1355,
My parents are never lectured to. I just present information to them since my father is also a scientist and we break it down for my mother who is not a scientist, but an artist and she listens to what we have to say and always asks questions about it. When I don't know the answer, I ask my bff, the nutritionist. If she doesn't know then she will usually find out the information by asking a colleague or reading up on it.
I did say attack, but I was exaggerating, because I absolutely adore my parents and would never want them to be attacked. I apologize for misusing the word.
I am very well aware that a lot of people do not eat as well as my dog. I also do feel guilty about buying the meat for my dog, but I adore him and my cat and do not want them to suffer. No organism is more important than another. I am sorry that I subject an animal to being slaughtered for my dog and cat to eat it. I am sorry that my animals eat better than other people. I am at a loss and I do not know what you want me to do about this. If I had my own world, I would make it so that everyone could eat well and live in a peaceful and healthful environment and never have to worry about anything.
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@nonamemanon I apologize I was very rude.I didn't mean to be nasty.A lot of people in Oregon are poor,it surrounds me a lot,and makes me feel guilty,that now I have a bit more money to retire on,I came back to Oregon,and I knew I would feel guilty seeing everyone else;'Oregon has always been a poor state.--i grew up with it..So I should not have blamed you,.I have a cat,and spoil her silly too.But the best thing you can do in Eugene,Lane county, is donate food,cans or fresh(they do some farming too)or money is ok too.--to the local Food Bank.Meals on Wheels is very helpful,too.Thank you,vizluz! I feel badly, cuz I have to make an effort to NOT BLAME ANY OF YOU.That doesn't help,at all,for me to blame people.Yes,when I taught cooking,I learned a lot about"how meat is raised."--it was very daunting to grapple with the facts.
@clarachan1355 Dear clarachan 1355,
Please do not worry, you do not need to apologize. I learned from your post and experience and I did not take it as rude at all.
I am glad that you have been able to retire comfortably. I did not realize Oregon was a poor state. To me it seems somewhat less expensive than some smaller inland places in California, the housing costs are comparable to the smaller areas down there. Even though we don't have sale taxes here, the property taxes in some places are quite high, not as bad as some east coast places, but definitely a lot more than San Diego property taxes. Plus utilities are a lot more expensive here in Oregon than in San Diego as is food and I shop at co-op's and in Eugene I love the Red Barn, Kiva and Sundance!
I love Meals on Wheels and love taking meals to people. I have not done it in a while because of work and conflicting time schedules, but I started doing it with my mom in high school and continued for several years after while in school. I love talking and meeting all the people. It was always so much fun. I hope to be able to one day contribute again. I do donate to the local food bank as well as the gleaners monthly and also pay extra every month on my electric bill so people who cannot afford it will be covered. I also go several times throughout the year to the local food bank and help with the sorting, stocking and boxing/unboxing.
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@nonamemanon hi, sigh, yes the so called "Underground comix"; it was iin San Francisco and it was mostly for "Wimmens' comix"(yes correct spelling)but it paid very badly everyone had :"day jobs".--I finally jjst got that job teaching cooking to adults, and I learned a lot on the job--i shoulda gone back to City College of San Francisco to find out the tech part of "industrial size ovens"they had in halfway houses.--but it was a much better job than the art because I couldd live ooff it and the PEOPLE wwre so much nicer than artists;artists all had huge egos even in Wimmen's comix;our best issue was"'Wimmens' Comix:1976-1776" and we did stories of women in history.i didn't keep my comic books,or the original art,it was stolen.Ater the 70's,most comix books faded oout,ours did too.it was STRANGE and the artists mixed with Mad magazine too,I had trouble getting innto regular comix cuz i wasn't sleeping with a big publisher--i had to get outta comix,it could be very sexist and the artists always got into feuds wiith each other.--so the comix were fun but the cook teach was very nice,made me feel better to help people who needed it.--they were very appreciative too.So I just stuck to teach for a long time. ...
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guru
Eat whatever you want, your body - your choices, cows are vegan it works for them, I eat cows and plants.I'm an omnivore and not a vegan, don't stress over it, there's more tofu and bean curd available.
Most of what I eat is wild game anyway, trout, salmon,perch, occasional walleye, elk, deer, rabbit and ducks, lots of ducks. I'm glad about the non-toxic shot rule. Only when guests do I amend the menu. Grocery meats are full of hormones and antibiotics anyway, like pesticide grown veggies, there's a problem with what's eaten, and it's not the item but whats in it.... 
@Tyrlarn I found this remark on it,never fforgot it;"Eat foods that hum to you." hah hah good advice!
@Tyrlarn You are doing better to hunt it yerself if you can,for avoiding a lot of industrial produce meat;yes,the businesses that I saw horrified me i hated chicken after getting all that info. on raising meat.--it put me off food,and some people AVOID certain chicken or eggs brands, they can give you ilnesses/and/or be horriblly cruel in how they do it.--its a good idea to research your brand of meat,find out how its made,ect the CLEANLINESS.CLEANLINESS in meat production very important!I am amazed that more incidents of poisoning or ECOLI don't happen,we never hear of it.Kosher meat is supposed to be better,even killed in a better method,supposidly.But,yes,research the brands you eat,if you can.--
@clarachan1355 I've been in a couple of those 'egg factories'; absolutely horrible, disgusting. People would stop eating eggs if they saw how the hen's are caged. Meat farms are the worst; Folks would be wholly revolted if they were given 1 hour of education on how meat is produced in America.
admin
Tried this vegan stuff - not for me. This is some kind of religion actually. I understand that the world is cruel, but our nature "works" this way. Lions eat antelopes, antelopes eat grass etc.
@Dr.Evil DR. Evil you are right that this world is cruel,and lion-eat-antelope, its what adults have to handle.it can be very vexing and we can't understand WHY it has to be that way.We older adults can get very depressed over"Life is hard,lots of pain,hurt,and then you die!" So we have to analyze what GOOD THINGS are in life.
senior guru
My dad hunted and we mostly ate venison, moose, and elk growing up. He was not a trophy hunter. We actually lived on it. He was very fussy and clean about his kills, cleaning, and hanging of the meat. And I didn’t even know how to buy meat in the oddly-named packaged cuts that are displayed (and dyed bright red) in the grocery store when he got too ill to hunt, and I was in my mid 30s. However, I also was a part time fitness instructor from my early 20s until a drunk hit me, and I lived on a very high carb heart diet for about 15 years just out of habit. So I didn’t eat tons of meat to begin with. After my dad died, I was 37 and down to 96 lbs (I’m 5’2” and small boned and 115 now). I had lost so much muscle mass. I went to a highly respected naturopath who was also an MD and he put me on a really high protein/low sugars diet. I HAD to eat meat. I had to stay away from potatoes and watermelon and bananas and anything that was high on the glycemic index. I added brown rice because just eating a whole chicken for a meal was just a bit weird to me, lol. I ate red peppers and onions with my meals...a lot. I eventually grew muscle back (muscle weighs more than fat) and wasn’t out of breathe after climbing our seven stairs anymore, but it took months. The ND said everyone needs different things, and sometimes, everyone needs different things at different times in their life. He also is known for ridding people of these food allergies that are suddenly crazy now. He insists that babies should get actual food early enough so their bodies don’t reject it and treat it like an allergen. I raised my son that way, bottle fed him, gave him cereal at 5 weeks and food at 3 months, and he is allergic to nothing, while all my breastfeeding cousins’ kids ALL are deathly allergic to many foods, and they are the only members and age group of our entire extended family to have any allergies at all. I need meat now. I may need to stay away from it at some future point. Our bodies change and we need to give them what they need.
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@ditzygypsy My grand daughter is allergic to almost everything. My daughter has to keep an epi pen handy. She is three years old. My daughter is just now trying some exposure therapy.... or homeopathy...or about to. Do you have any advice? Or know of any good articles, or treatments? Doctors? Thanks.
@bondojoe I’m so sorry about that, and it is SO scary when they can be in danger of having a reaction like that. Exposure therapy. That sort of sounds like what the NDMD I went to does for many people. We lived next to a place that , for many years, operated a mushroom compost facility. They had no proper buildings or ventilation. It smelled horrible, but they just kept paying the fines and operating. Eventually, the metal posts corroded from the toxic fumes and the building fell down. I went to him and he asked if I ate a lot of mushrooms. I never ate any at that time. I hated mushrooms, lol. But my body was acting like I lived on them. He used a diode machine thing on your hands to check levels, and I thought it was hilarious hocus pocus, but he predicted my failing pancreas 5 years before I ever had a pancreatitis attack. He didn’t prescribe supplements, really. Just a digestive enzyme and some weird drops for the back of my hand and the low glycemic/high protein diet. I think with my friend’s small kids who had life-threatening allergies, he used the exposure method, though. And they completely overcame their multiple allergies. I shoved strawberries, salmon, peanut butter...everything in my son’s mouth by four months old and even if he didn’t keep eating it, because he didn’t like it, I just forced it into his body (peanut butter cookies, strawberry jam, etc.) and all the other kids/cousins are deathly allergic to those things, but they didn’t get to try them until around a year old. If your granddaughter is under the care of a similar health care person to my NDMD, I believe she can get better. The mannen (I think that’s what it’s called; it’s actually got a connection to the Biblical Manna somehow) drops that my friend used on her little kids has to be kept in a separate fridge, as did my weird hand drops, as apparently just being near the bottle can affect others who don’t need it. But she did everything he said to do and not to do, and so did I, and he fixed all our weird problems. I don’t have extended health anymore because I’m not at work, so my extra things aren’t covered (we had a couple of thousand dollars annually we could use on whatever we wanted for health when I worked at the university), but I’d go to him now if I could afford it and also if I knew I could stick to what he says to do. He is originally from Oregon, I think, but he has been in BC for years now. I’m not sure where you are, but I’m sure I could figure out who his colleagues and like-minded associates are. The fact that he is not a vitamin pusher really makes a difference. But his little hand machine is not the joke I thought it was at first. I hope your granddaughter can overcome those allergies. 😊
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@ditzygypsy Thanks for the response. I'm just starting to learn about all of this. I've never had allergies. I can pick up poison ivy, and not get a reaction. I don't know why that is. I'm going to start some serious research on this. My granddaughter lives in the chicago area.
@ditzygypsy that is a very good example'you got a good doctor who knew what he was doing.WOW,so the food allergies came with BREAST FEEDING?!!holy s---!I was bottle fed,no food allergies.That's amazing about the protein--those are the most sucessful weight loss diets,too,"very little carbs."Yes,I read that about potatoes.BUT THE BREAST FEEDING--its gotten so popular,wonder if all these allergies are from it??Wonder if there's a study on it?
@clarachan1355 Oh oh! No. I don’t think that allergies come with breastfeeding, per se. I think the fact that most breastfed babies brought up just on breast milk makes their bodies think real food is something that is attacking their system. They often don’t get food-food as early as those of us who think a bottle, formula, and not giving our babies our bodily fluids with (in my case) our medications in it is a good thing to do. Also, I was bottle fed. In fact I grew up on Pacific Milk at first, lol because I was 5lbs 4oz and they told my mom I needed the calories. Same with my brother who was even smaller. I just didn’t like nursing. I have neck nerve injuries from a drunk hit and run and my son was almost 9lbs and I hated the weird way I had to sit and how heavy he was for my arms. So, I sat on the floor, crossed-legged, and fed him and just loved it. I played with him and my arms didn’t hurt and I lost all my 28 lbs in 5 weeks. And I adore him and bonded beautifully. Also, he’s the only grandchild and everyone got to participate in feeding. 😊I was bullied and shamed in the hospital into trying nursing, and if they can break me, they can break ANYONE. I did it for 1 day and just about killed the nurses. I had even brought my own bottles with me. So I will defend any mother’s right to nurse in public and not be bullied and shamed, as I expect them to defend any other new mom’s right to formula and bottle feed. But I introduced food early and my son has no allergies. His dad does. I don’t. And my son doesn’t. And as for studies, they don’t want to hear it. It’s almost cult-like and some of those diehard la leche people are real fanatics. They refuse to recognize the correlation between the rise in allergies in children, specifically food allergies, with the rise in the breastfeeding craze that began in earnest about 25 years ago. Both my GP and my NDMD believe introducing food too late has an effect, and they don’t even know each other. And my family with the babies who have and the babies who don’t have food allergies certainly supports that assertion. And we’re just one family.
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@ditzygypsy Sorry to butt in, but I have read that automobile exhaust fumes cause breast cancer, and that the toxins are concentrated in breast milk.
master
hhhmmm...so, back to the old Weight Watcher's diet--very low carb, big on protein-fish--and it really worked too.Fruits,vegetables, you just don't eat as MUCH MEAT OR FISH.There was one thing about it,the MILK.My sister knew that an adult needs 2- 8 oz. glasses of milk, or 8 oz. of plain,non-fat yogurt a day.My dad's KNEES WERE BAD--my sister put him on that milk,his knees got BETTER.Apparentally he still needed milk as an adult--all the Weight Watchers drank that milk,and their skin was fabulous--it glowed!!Even older people. Anyone having knees problem "try this milk regiment."All we weight-watchers had very good health--very low carb diet.--big on fish!! I still love fish,in the pacific northwest, fish is expensive.(???)oh,well,everything is expensive!!
no wonder i can't lose any weight, TOO MUCH CARBS!!Growing up on all the meat and milk as a kid,our bones were very good.WORD TO THE WISE--watch out for yer bone-density,guys!!Bondojoe, eat any amt. ...
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@clarachan1355 www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/11/17 1113111104.htm
"inconsistant studies about breastfeeding"
healthychildren.org/English/ages...
arguing just over this subject,fills all of duckduckgo!
BUT READ THIS OPPOSITE!!
ing-6-months-causes-allergie s-warn-British-researchers.html
@clarachan1355 Milk (of any kind) is an interesting subject. I'd encourage you to read about milk and osteoporosis. Also, calcium supplements and bone degeneration. There's a lot of controversy there.
If you think about it though, is there anything natural about an adult human drinking a cow's breastmilk? And, if we were meant to drink it, then why do we need to constantly impregnate a cow and remove their calve to get it?
I use various plant milks at times, but I can't say if they're any better.
Perhaps bone health is something that's determined from pregnancy through childhood? My mother wasn't breastfed and had an eating disorder as a child. She ate a lot of dairy when she became an adult though. Her bones are BAD. I was breastfed and ate a lot of dairy as a vegetarian child, but eat very little vegan dairy as an adult. My bones are solid. ...
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@clarachan1355 I live in BC, and I don’t like touching raw fish, lol, but I do love sockeye. I find it’s on sale a lot though. Or, although it’s not sockeye, I buy something called “Can’t Mess Up” and it’s marinated salmon filets, two in a package, in the freezer section, and you put it in a pot of boiling water and turn off the element and leave it covered for 10 min’s exactly, and then take it out of the plastic pouch and serve it. It’s usually $9.99 (CAD) for a box of two filets, but often on sale for $7.99. You have more product selection in the US grocery stores, so maybe you can find it or something like it in the store there? My brother fishes when he can, and we have many First Nations friends, so we can get fresh, but I like to keep my freezer stocked, and I love salmon, and it’s so good for you. As for milk, I crave it and have craved it since I hit menopause four years ago so I do drink it, but I like 1% the best. ...
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master
www.dailymail.co.uk/home/search....
This was the Daily Mail research just on arguments over allergies and breastfeeding!!The health and pediatric world has all different opinions!!wow!!there is the "6-months-causes-allergie s-warn-British-researchers.html"I accidentally screwed up. Yeah,there is huge debate over this!!the doctor who was the highly respected naturopath, must be one of the best.I wish he were here-
-one of the best ways to find a good doc,is often"word-of-mouth",so. Bondojoe, you might want to go where there's gossip, in your region,socialize, and casually say."I really have this allergic granddaughter,anyone know good docs or naturopaths around?"--and lots of people do like to praise(or curse)their doctors and dentists.--its how I found my dentist.--if its a naturopath,health food stores,cafes,where people might chat,good idea too.BULLETIN BOARDS.But humam socializing might be best.Have fun,too. ...
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@clarachan1355 LOL! Generally , human socializing just brings me despair... But thanks!!
@bondojoe Omg. You took that one right out of my brain, lol. I now live where I went to high school. I hated my high school (private Mennonite Christian school) so, now, I see people I knew I high school, and I do what that Green Day song, Loss of Control, says:
“Hanging our all by myself, at least I’m in good company
Hey isn’t that old whatshisface that I see walking down the street
I’m gonna hide in the shadows ‘cause I really got nothin to say
We never had anything in common and I never liked you anyway...”
😂
master
I have to mention this research at UC MED CENTER,PARNASSUS,SAN FRANCISCO CALIFORNIA,I stumbled into,years ago.I saw the results on research of main causes for present-day-huge-amt. of breast cancer in women..(in USA.)
It was scary--They nailed "auto-exhaust and gasoline in the environment as acting on the human breast at the molecular level to cause breast cancer."(Every friend,mom,sister,wife,daughter,ect.I heard of,had breast cancer!)I was stupid,didn't keep the copy of the results--I assumed everyone already knew it was pollution!Boy,when I tried to tell anyone,I had lost my paper copy!NO ONE WANTED TO HEAR IT.NOT even my science-loving sister!
I asked later,"How cum UC MED CENTER DOES NOT ANNOUNCE THIS?"INSURANCE.They could get sued--guess by whom?OIL.big fat oil would sue the Hell out of the poor med school!NOW YOU KNOW WHY.but I can't prove it,I guess I would get sued for saying it!Their research dept.is pretty good--the same school that found out"taking Lithium can cure Herpes."(True.)
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God
OK! Let's get to the nitty gritty! I've been attacked several times for eating meat. I don't eat much...but I eat some. Some of my friends on here are Vegans, and I respect them for it. If you are religious...you can point to this...Genesis 1...29 "And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat." That's pretty clear. If you are NOT religious...that means nothing to you. I would never cause harm to an animal that I do not intend to eat. That's cruelty. And most of the facilities that raise meat for consumption are filthy, cruel, and under regulated. You've read the horror stories. BUT...for the people that enjoy meat, are we not at the top of the "food chain"? Isn't the food chain a NATURAL proccess? Animals eat other animals. They are not kind about it..eating them as they die...slowly. ...
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