Is ANYTHING more important than Freedom? (989 views, 92 replies)
expert
I find it hard to believe people that are so outspoken by their beliefs, but dont fight for them in real life. Whining online isnt going to change anything. You do that by direct confrontation of your oppressors.
@notenoughmovies I agree. But the question was..."Is anything more important?"
@bondojoe Food, water and clean air. You cant fight on an empty stomach. Its why dictators work so well in underdeveloped countries. They are too worried about where the next meal for them and their children is going to come from,rather than improvement in the long term.
@notenoughmovies Yes, it's true;you can't fight for freedom if you collapse from starvation.I often think of,and read about,the lower class workers in China.Their lack of freedom is very severe,often working and living in factories with no life except endless work shifts.--like slaves.It reminds you of "1984" somewhat.It was the STUDENTS OF UNIVERSITY who held protests at Tiananmen Square ,I suspect they were in better circumstances to be able to protest.(altho I often deride college protests,this one was for more freedom.)Yes,you can't fight on an empty stomach.--bondojoe. its why a lot of European workers immigrated to America,cause the chances for better advancement in America were there--and places in Europe at that time were nil.That also goes for most ARAB NATIONS,most of their population is in poverty,easier to control them that way--and violence is more a way of life.If the population revolts,you just kill em.--and Arab nations never helped Palestinians locate to other Arab countries to get away from that trap.--They could have helped their own Muslim brothers--instead the head of the Palestinians stole millions of dollars donated to all Palestinians' aid,and padded his own bank acct.--that fact came out.
@bondojoe YES, my mental health,and physical health,now im 71,is most important thing.--not freedom.I have to regularly take nuerological medicine--and sometimes get it changed--go to doctor for that.--my insurance has to enable this!!MIGRAINES can kill me off.my back now needs regular chiropractor--money and insurance have to be good!I have to pay for deductables--if the insurance stops paying,i stop living.--if Medicare stops,I literally die.NO MEDICINE.NO DOCTOR.I already get sick cause i no longer have ENT doctor.--can't get one.THINK ABOUT really disabled!!--cannot see!!--cannot hear!--cannot walk!--can't get job and work!I know people like this.My sister sees people who go to a blind school--talk about no choices.NO VISUAL WORLD.where's your freedom if you're blind?
@clarachan1355 I'm the same way... my medicine keeps me alive. You still have the choice whether or not you want to continuie living like this. What if someone told you that you had to spend the next twenty years in a bed. In pain. THEN you would want some freedom.
@MoonKnight There's a quote: “Thousands have lived without love, not one without water” W. H. Auden
@MoonKnight Being without love doesn't mean you will be without it forever. So yes life is worth it when you are without it.
@KingDeathTrooper #QUOTE Charley Waite: Well you may not know this, but there's things that gnaw at a man worse than dying.
@KingDeathTrooper #QUOTE Charley Waite: Well you may not know this, but there's things that gnaw at a man worse than dying.
AGREE TO DISAGREE, NICE DISCUSSION.
senior guru
I do believe that freedom is very important. But so is your family and loved ones. We live in such a society in which freedom is very hard to come by. Maybe not if you are a billionaire. We gotta work to eat, to pay the bills, taxes, and loans. Even in a perfect world if I wake up with total freedom I wouldn't know what to do. Maybe I will still be doing the same things. Mainly because I haven't thought about it. Maybe I wouldn't have to work in that perfect world. What would you do if you have total freedom of your life?
@xRimax I pretty much have total freedom, as far as my finances will carry me. And you are correct, I am doing much of the same things that I always did. Someone recently offered me some gummy marijuana. She said" This one will keep your mind sharp...this one will put you to sleep...this one will relax you..." I thought about it a couple of seconds, and said "I'm good" And I was. I'm not happy about a lot of things that I see, and things that are going on in the world, and with people I know, but I'm content with myself. You can't make other people live the way that you want them to.
@bondojoe I think enough coffee or red bull will keep you up and keep your mind sharp for a day. I haven't taken any drugs since well may high school. Not everyone have their finances fixed. Maybe I and my husband will finally fix them within 5-6 years. But that is a lot of years and work and struggle. Talking about school, they teaches us we can be anyone we want to be. Then teaches us Algebra. Now i see through their lies. But we are all part of their lies. They all just wanted worker bees. They got them. I do volunteer work for the homeless and the helpless whenever i can. I even go the Church to serve the poor. You know they give them food and drinks. And they allow everyone to help even a non believer. In my community that is the only big place to serve a lot of people in need. I also do go green environment work as a volunteer. But last time i did that maybe last year. Maybe we can help the people in need and save the earth or try to do it. ...
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@xRimax 200 years ago, ships sailed from New England, sometimes staying gone two or three years. Gathering whale oil. But that time passed, and the time will pass when we no longer use oil and coal from the ground, that pollutes the air, and makes us all sick. The planet will get cleaned up. In another 200 years, ships will probably sail the planets finding sources of energy there, or just using the sun as a souce of energy, and colonizing the planets. Or maybe using cold fusion, or something that no one has yet thought of. Things seem to go on forever...then suddenly they are gone. A hundred years ago, we were barely flying. [1903] Genetics and DNA manipulation will allow anyone to be any color that they like. Some might prefer green, or blue. But human nature will be the same, unless we change that too. Some people will like one color over another...just like now. Agression can be breeded out...but do we want to be monsters of our own creation? Do we all WANT to be the same? Who will hold those keys? When I talked about freedom, I meant freedom FROM THINGS, and freedom of thought, and speech, more than freedom from work. ...
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@bondojoe Yes, you are correct. As a specie we all do not want the same thing. But our goal remains the same. To survive and to live another day and to see a better future. Better for who, that remains to be seen. I think we got the freedom of speech i know a lot of countries do not have it. I think there was a thing called the Arab spring. Look at them now. Did anything change? Made it worse I think. Again if we want the freedom of work and freedom from things our school system needs to change. Other than that I do not see it happening for everyone. I think SpaceX is very positive about mars but I do not think I am gonna be alive to see those days. Or maybe i will. But to be frank we should had done it already.
@bondojoe I was told that the space race ended because the soviet union well fell apart. Watched it on YouTube too. Same reason given. But you know that more than me. I don't think China can do much in the space race although a lot of Chinese people live in our community sounds really well optimistic about it. So, yeah, i guess if the big corporations doesn't step up i really do not see that happening.
@xRimax Just because the Soviet Union fell apart is no reason to quit. We worked with Russia on the International space station. There's something else going on, and they just won't tell us. Maybe we already have bases on the moon. It's only ..what 3 days away? The New Horizons probe passed the moon in just 8 hours 35 minutes on its way to Pluto. The international space stataion COULD have been built in moon orbit, instead of earth orbit. We have internatiional flights that last as long as 17 hours, in pressurized cabins. I don't buy that crap about us not having the technology to go back. Something is bogus.
@bondojoe I think if there is no competition there is no progress. Russia only give access to launch the rockets. It's not like they are building great new rockets. I heard China is building their own space station. We do have satellites and robots on moon i think. Same with Mars. They are hiding a lot of things alright. I agree there. It's not like they are live from moon or mars . They only show what they want us to see. Europa also have potentials they could have sent something there too. According to some documentaries. Still to terraform mars will take hundreds of years. So, i am skeptical about it.
@bondojoe YES, YOU CAN'T MAKE OTHER PEOPLE LIVE THE WAY YOU WANT THEM TO.
I think that is the whole problem with "cutting all pollution to stop more global warming."--Big companies & nations,and even just PEOPLE don't want to stop things that create global warming!
So how can we stop the global extremes,if people don't want to stop harmful activities?We can't.
Its close to that Easter island with huge head sculptures--those natives deliberately destroyed their environment,even though they KNEW IT WOULD KILL THEM.--And they all died!!WHY WOULD humans deliberately fix their island,so they'd die?Death wish?Life was not as important as their behavior was,to them?.
@clarachan1355 I'm sorry...but you are wrong. You CANNOT make people live the way you would like them to. By the way... finance.townhall.com/columnists/...
senior guru
virtually every institution of modern human civilisation has been corrupted by money and politics.
in response, people generally fall back on their own sense of order and put faith in whatever fits their own world view; no matter how simplistic or outlandish it might appear to others.
space programs, medicine, biology - even the fundamental sciences like physics will sometimes put people at odds with one another.
this is the how and why of everyday people feeling alternately discounted and disconnected from what actually exists in their world today.
imagine the sense of enlightenment to know of these - and how that feeling itself is such a close cousin of freedom: because the oppression of people depends on the suppression of knowledge as well.
senior master
I like the thread that joe started but I feel it has 2 or more questions-topics included concerning awakening of the masses and ways of revolting (getting back freedom).
-I personaly think freedom is more importand than health, family e.t.c and this why many people sacrificed all that. Because they believed so. Or maybe I feel so.
-Even ancient philosophers have pointed out the virtual reality ( Plato's cave) we common people live in. Hard to find the absolute truth, even with the help of charismatic people. Many dogmas, theories, paths have been drawn in politics, religion, philosophy and so on. Many times people that have fought for things they believed were going to liberate them have been dissapointed or died in vain. So modern people have the knowledge of the past and being really sceptic on revolting about a cause. I think they would revolt when their basic rights are opressed and manage to overcome the virtual reality's cave.
-I don't think one person can be so wise to rule with absolute wisdom a country (monarchy, dictatorship, totalitarianism e.t.c) because as Aristotel said he just cannot be wiser than all the rest or better than all the rest.
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@18635fdgd Yes,thru history,democracies did not last long;they collapsed finally into corruption,dictatorships,"royal empires" and "taxation without representation"which spurred 1776 Revolt.Human beings are too easily corrupted by power & money,luxury,& ease,and soon a power-group forms,that takes freedom away from the people.--and no more Democracy. Russia has an "oligarchy,"rich ruling class.We lost our freedom from tyranny in America,yeah,we got screwed.--one main reason there's no good jobs.--our economy is f*cked up forever.Freedom is great.,IF YOU CAN GET IT.
master
I don't believe there is anything better than freedom. Left home at 15 on the back of a English BSA 650 motorcycle and could not believe how wonderful it felt to live my own life, although I only had a large room and shared a bathroom with another girl. The boyfriend (whom I later married at 17) came and left via the bedroom window because company wasn't allowed.
The total freedom I felt leaving a bad living situation was amazing, although it was terrifying to do it all on my own. Those were some of the best days of my life.
A bit of a different freedom then you've all mentioned above, but it was the best feeling I've ever had. just being accountable for my own life and having no one really to answer to. I also had a job which was crappy, but was able to pay my own rent.
@𝓜𝓸𝓾𝓼𝓮*🐭 That's close to what I was talking about. I guess we would first need a definition of freedom, for people to determine if it's the most important thing to them. Too many people seem to be tying it to ecomonies, and governments, and responsibilities. They are turning THEMSELVES into slaves, because they want something, and are willing to give up their freedom to have it.
@bondojoe I can honestly say that was the closet I've ever felt to freedom. But as life went on I think I sort of lost track of that feeling and basically forgot about it a little.
I guess that's what life does to us. We (at least I) have always looked for freedom and found other things instead that made me NOT so free. Some of those things are relationships which really tie a person down. At least that's how I feel about it looking back.
Also I think most people strive to get the material things they want and lose sight of the simple things which are more important than those other things, and that in the end don't ever really satisfy them or what they truly want.
@bondojoe So true, people (me included formerly) are always waiting for something to improve their lives, whether it be a relationship or new car, winning the lottery etc. when all that they really need is to be satisfied with the simple things and not always endlessly waiting for a more fulfilling (imagined) future that may never happen.
@bondojoe I didn't really have "freedom"until I retired,got a stable living situation,and had more money to live on.--Being poor limits your freedom.--My work never paid very well,& it affected what I could DO.I liked my job,but I looked at high-up chefs,with great restaurants,and thought, "HOW did they do it?They were just SO STRONG,CAPABLE,could get money to start?"--and few people were able to do that,too.
@clarachan1355 You wanted certain things, and gave up your freedom to get them. Being poor is complete freedom. What do you have left to lose? Being rich is one of the worst burdens that I can think of.
@xRimax Opportunity. They can do whatever they want to. They can decide to live like the poor, or stay where they are, or decide to become rich. I see that you are in Australia. I don't know what it's like there, but in America, a good idea, or hard work, and frugality can and will result in riches. If you don't piss it away. If money is IMPORTANT to you, you can still get it here. There's plenty of ways. Your own business, or a string of them. You start with one. Real estate and housing is another good way. I have several relatives that weren't especially intelligent, but are now millionaires, because they worked hard, for a long time, made good investments, and took care of their money. They didn't buy everything that they wanted...just what they had to have. I don't know if you can do that in Australia. The odd part is, that I don't think that any of them are really happy. ...
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@bondojoe There will always be new taxes you can bet a billion bucks on that. Yeah, you can do that in here as well. But i do not wanna invest in anything right now in this economy. I hear always people saying too much money is a curse. But i wouldn't know anything about it as i never had too much money. I am a liberal too. I never thought you do not have any right over what you have worked for. It is the opposite actually. I always believed that hard work and determination always pays off. I do agree with all of your points. Thanks. This is a really healthy conversation. Your opinions and points were insightful to me.
@bondojoe WHY is being poor,freedom?you can't choose where you live,or food you eat,or transportation,or recreation--people with good money have CHOICES.I even had little choice about WHERE,i lived,if i could live alone,or HOW NICE the place was.--I was so limited in the material world!!You DO UNDERSTAND,this world is MATERIAL,and mostly based on POWER AND MONEY?POOR PEOPLE have no choices!!--go live on the streets!-in parks!-poor people get HOMELESS.THEY DON'T EAT!!I know very poor people,they struggle to pay rent,to keep from being homeless!!or having decent food!The fed. govt. wants to cut their money off,make em pay more taxes,refuse them aid--even the disabled!Their lives are Hell!MONEY AND POWER rule this world.
@clarachan1355 Nothing left to lose....you have to give up your freedom to access all of those things you mentiuon..that you want.. '
where you live,or food you eat,or transportation,or recreation' Those things aren't freedom...they take away freeedom. MONEY AND POWER don't rule my world.
God
@FemaleLotRfan83 Very few people choose freedom over life,family,money,and freedom from fear.--you named it.Many people in history even changed their religion,because the govt. forced them to--or die. Freedom is often a luxury many people in the world can't afford.You can't eat freedom,drink it,or use it as money--it doesn't make you rich or secure.People who give up all,to fight for freedom,have a fire inside that refuses to settle,or hide,because their strength & determination comes directly from God-and their vision is clear and all-seeing,above all men's fears.People like that in history have either died,or made their people fight like lions till they have won it.But--you pay a huge price for freedom--it consumes everything else in flame,until the determined one is either dead,or triumphant.THAT is what true leaders are like-and how they live.Freedom has an awful price on it.--beyond gold..
member
Equality. if everyone is equal then everyone has the same amount of freedom. right now there are people with way way more freedom than the majority of the population of america or the world. but freedom is kind of a lie. we can never escape the planet at least not yet we can't escape from death. freedom is an abstract concept. the only true freedom in life is death. death frees you from the need to constantly work to survive. as long as you are alive you're a slave to your mortal body. Equality is the most important thing. if everyone is equal the quality of life will improve.
@NinjaBoyOne very good!! you hit it on the head!!EXACTLY!!"Freedom" is really very limited to humans cause of what we are.(You've been thinking about this.) ---- I think equality is even harder to accomplish--cause we're not all alike. 
@NinjaBoyOne But everyone is not equal. That is a fact. If you think death is the only way to true freedom then i do not know how to reply to that. But freedom isn't a lie. Maybe some people loves gardening to them doing that is freedom. Maybe some people loves to travel to them traveling is freedom. Meaning of freedom may vary people to people. To be alive you need to eat and to eat is to survive. Maybe some people worked really hard to get what they want then other come to get it from that person? That cannot be equality. Equal pay doesn't work either. That is an established fact too. A doctor cannot get the same pay as a waiter. Your points contradicts the facts of reality.
@xRimax i base my beliefs partially on the Zeitgeist movies. and the work of jaque fresco. I believe that if you ever watched those movies. but i believe a lot of things also. government religion and the monetary system are all designed to make humans act against their own human nature. and no one will do anything anymore without monetary incentive. but money doesn't actually exist in nature. it can't make things better not really and it's not a resource. money in effect is worthless. everyone is equal we are all human beings and deserve love and the basics food shelter and there is plenty to go around that there's no reason any person should be homeless or without food. the only reason is because people have been duped into believing that the economy means money. look up the actual definition of economy. it's about dividing the resources and creating as little waste as possible...money is waste. ...
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@NinjaBoyOne My question , that started this thread was "Is ANYTHING more important than Freedom?" That's what I wanted. Answers to what people thought. Those answers tell me a lot about that person. You don't need to ask me what. You already know.
@NinjaBoyOne You talk about the system. You and I both cannot change it. We live in that system. You pointed out the living conditions of the poor and homeless. Are you doing anything about it? I know a government shows off say they are doing something. In reality that is not much. But are you doing something about it? Maybe share your lunch. Maybe give your old blankets. Whatever it is you can do. It may not be much but it helps them.
I know money cannot bring you happiness, maybe not even freedom. But this is not year 1. This is the year 2019. We are unable to change those things. I agree human brings deserves everything. So does the other animals on this planet. Do not forget it. In this system, if you do not have the money you cannot have food, shelter, etc. In this case, there is no choice but to get a job. If you help others and do your parts to save the planet from pollution etc then I salute you. Better to live in reality and doing something about that reality than dreaming about a future that has very little chance to happen.
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God
Everyone here is confusing freedom with resposibility...but you CHOOSE to take that job, get married, have children, get that new car, and 30 year mortgage. Those are choices that you made FREELY! You are complaining about your own FREE choices!
master
I don't think many people even realize they are choosing those things;it reminds me of a famous 60's movie,with Peter Sellers,where this straight guy,is engaged to his secretary,but then runs into a gorgeous hippie.He rejects his job,fiancee,his way of dress,starts to live in his car,and tries to live the "free"hippie life.BUT--his friends try to live off him,and his wife says"I am free to have sex with other men,you can't stop me."--and those 2 things especially kill his desire to live that way.
THAT MANNER OF LIVING discourages him,he goes back to his job.--dumps the hippie wife,goes back to the straight life.He goes back to secretary,proposes marriage.--Tells everyone,"I was wrong."BUT-at the wedding,the minister says,"Do you take this woman to be your wife?"And, he replies"I can't do it. I can't do this life,this job,this marriage"and he runs off,saying .desperately,"There must be something BETTER!!there must be,somewhere!!"
@clarachan1355 He is chasing something better. Maybe it is freedom to him or he is addicted to the idea there is something better out there. Either way the choices are his.
@clarachan1355 he took the blue pill and went back to the matrix. it was too comfy and addicting there.
senior guru
You are free.
You have the freedom to do whatever you want to do. You're just not free of the consequences of your choices.
master
We're arguing if people HAVE CHOICES at all.You can sit on the sidewalk,if homeless--sleep in garbage-bins--look for food-get thrown out of garbage bin-sh*t in alleys when able- 
-freeze to death at night--hit people up for change 
-sit down,if cops don't throw you outta there--sometimes live under freeways 
(they fence many of em off here)in some regions.Never get out of weather. 
Go crazy 
from loud traffic.--have no friends.CHOICES WOW!!! 
master
I made some hard choices--I did not get married to the men i knew,had available.I knew it would end in divorce or unhappiness--Im happy with that choice.I also had to choose if I wanted kids--I saw single women with kids,it looked too hard--I didn't have kids;now i am glad i did not.
But were these easy choices?NO, they were not.its hard being single.I found out,I like some kids.--but in both cases,it would have been MUCH WORSE.--I had limited choices,and limited money.I did not want to be one of those really poor women,on welfare,can't feed her kids,ect.--can't take good enough care of em,money really figured in.--Ditto marriage,it was hard having those fiances,it woulda been worse living with em,married.--I broke up with both.I was not an easy person to live with,either.--so they could have said,"she's really a crazy b**ch."ARTISTS are hard to live with.-THAT always comes first.
@bondojoe Yes, but I don't think being an artist is a choice;you just have the talent & ability,usually,naturally,then you practice at it.I am sorry I chose that as a CAREER'I should have gone to business school,and done that,i found out it was more intellectually stimulating as a job.I could have done art for recreation.--but I had not very good-career-guidance-help.--BAD,in fact.I could not get any idea of what the commercial art life was like,or if it even existed.--or paid money.Career guidance from experienced people you respect,is very important.--if you lack that,its hard.
@bondojoe i didn't choose to be an artist. i was just born a muse. and that only makes sense if you only believe in free will. the chances are equally as great that we are all in a simulation and are fated to whatever the person who has the controller wants.
@NinjaBoyOne All good...but who or what created the simulation? There has to be a Genesis. I don't believe in CONTINUING order without intelligence...do you?
@NinjaBoyOne simulation reality is just another one of the theory. A lot of scientist don't agree with it. There is a difference between free will and freedom of choices. But you know that already. A lot of people may not have freedom of choices because of their illnesses but in general in long term one gets to choose their choices. In short term there is not much of choices. There are thousands of examples i can give to you. Again, i believe you know them already.
top expert
a reliable support network... be it family or another group of people.
I could live in the underground comfortably... in fact, I kind of miss it. The more intimate social circles, the underlining sense of community and family..
but most of us do enjoy the struggle more... as youth is entangled with the need to rebel, to dive head first into struggle as a ritual of growth and maturity. But once you reach the peak... where does one go? Without the struggle, how does one live?
like a sailor coming back from military service... it's the adjustment disorders more than the ptsd that narrows the view of perceptions and leaves one with a nostalgic gaze to all the pillars of salt left behind.
senior guru
So much negativity in a positive forum. It's kinda depressing. Reminds me of an old saying, "we all had a vote tell me who is to blame?" You cannot predict the future. If you love swimming then swim. Maybe you will be a great swimmer one day. If you love writing then write. Maybe you will be the best writer of the year one day. If you are stuck with what-ifs and buts then making choices become really hard. If you're good at something do that. If it doesn't workout leave a plan B. You need to plan your future. I know it will never be how you have planned it. But you will have options and other choices. If your friends are not good, leave them. Walk alone do your stuff. You may find better friends. Keep your mind fresh. It is a harsh world. We all know it. Change starts from you with you. Another old saying if you wanna change something first change yourself. Change your habits change the way you think. And act on them.
admin
master
Yes,Dr. Evil is so right; 
why the middle-class life is so desired,it satisfies the food,water,place to live,.health-necessities.--Since all the Middle-Class life has disappeared, 
people get poor,or poor-working-class,and they even get heavier taxes now, 
(This started after Obama,due to his programs.) 
--there's no healthy,money-making middle-class to support the states and the fed. govt.I think HUGE GOVT. BLOAT has reduced our freedom,cuz we are all carrying a heavy fat govt, we can't pay for,which has become TOO BIG,and needs to be cut of corruption. ...
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senior guru
this is for whoever insists on putting stipulations before what should be an obvious answer. any dictatorship will have anticipated your list of demands well in advance, just to conserve bullets for later. by then you will have forgotten that list too.
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God
Not to me. It's ALWAYS been the most important thing in my life. I'll fight anything for it. What do you think? You have to eat, you have to survive. But do you lose the will to do those things if you are sqirming under the thumb of oppression...and can't find a way out? -----Or do you revolt?